Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Knights of the Sky GB 2011
Mgunns
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 06:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

(Mr Conklin, a sixth grade teacher to his most troublsome student:
"Carl, do you have your book report?"

"No, I spilled some enamel paint on it."



If memory serves me correctly, Mr. Conklin was the principal at the school were Adele Brooks taught school. One of her students was the irrepressible "Walter". Mr. Conklin played by Gayle Gordon, Adele Brooks played by Eve Arden, and "Walter" played by Richard Crenna from the T.V. show "Our Miss Brooks". And I can imagine "Walter" saying the same thing.

Now for something completely different.
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 07:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't want to throw a monkey ionto the wrench but as you do seem to be looking for ideas...

Since I don't build 1/32 I have no interest in a WNW build, and captured aircraft doesn't do much for me either. Have their been any group builds to celebrate the period covered after WW1? This section does extend to 1934 and there was quite a bit going on aviation wise 1919-1934, air racing, the development of real passenger air travel, air racing, record breaking flights etc etc.

With 2011 being the centennial of naval aviation perhaps a nautical theme would be appropriate (The US navy seems to be dominating this but no reason it couldn't include all naval aviation within the period covered here).

Just throwing out some ideas, I'll go crawl back under my rock now.



While we have had several Tweeners GB in the recent past, The Naval idea has merit.
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 08:30 AM UTC
Ok here is the deal.

We are not going to make everyone happy. But we will press on anyway.

The reason we have a one manufacturer contests / GB annually is the manufacturer takes an interest in the GB and contributes. In the past we have had Eduard, Roden and WNW all participating singly.

Now we come to the next step multiple manufactures taking interest. This benefits all - but to do them justice (an encourage their interests) we have to have a large number of participants in each category.

To sticky GB topics we have to be fair to the other manufacturers (even the smaller ones). This year we are going to open the GB to all manufacturers all scales. All types (single or multiple seaters). I will approach each manufacturer and ask them to "vote" on their favorite company 's product in a build. This will include aftermarket parts & pieces. With the "best" being honoured with products from these companies.

I will open it to all builds - new , unfinished hangar queens, injection, resin metal. It will include all Early Aviation subject upto 1934. Final rules to be drafted and submitted in a day or so. Now, there are NO gaurantees as to a manufacturer's participation.

Now "someone" has said that we should have each build reviewed? I can see that being a good opportunity for everyone to get their feet wet. Each participant will submit in their build thread (in Early Aviation title) a blog with the content being bent toward its submission to Aeroscale for publishing on the front page. I may even have to get the "someone" on board to help keep track of things. . .now who was that? . . . . ._

You should pick a past published review and use it for a template when writing yours. NO plagerism please, minimal cut and paste. These have to be your submissions.
CaptainA
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 09:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Now "someone" has said that we should have each build reviewed? I can see that being a good opportunity for everyone to get their feet wet. Each participant will submit in their build thread (in Early Aviation title) a blog with the content being bent toward its submission to Aeroscale for publishing on the front page. I may even have to get the "someone" on board to help keep track of things. . .now who was that? . . . . ._




Carl has left the building...

(actually, I saw him running down the street)...

Very, very slowly...
CaptainA
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 09:40 AM UTC
Actually, if we are going to do build reviews, we should make sure we don't have multiple builds of the same kit. I would like to submit that when we enlist, we pick the kit we want to do, and that kit can't be done by another modeler, unless the modeler uses AM decals or PE etc., that make the kit or review different. I think there is more than enough kits to go around. That means we need to have a sign up thread when we enlist.

Stephen, I will help if you can catch me buh bye.
thegirl
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 11:03 AM UTC
This is getting interesting now ....really opens the door on subjects and in all scales !

I like it ! Would be up for doing a review as well , nice twist to the GB .

Sorry Carl but I have a scheme picked out for WNW Pfalz D.IIIa already . Going with Oblt Hans Berthge Jasta 30
CaptainA
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 11:25 AM UTC
Not a problem Terri. I was not going to do the Pfalz for this build. I would not even consider stealing your thunder.
AaronW
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 12:36 PM UTC
I like the idea of including a review. I've recently picked up some Olimp resin kits that look fun and I haven't seen many reviews for them.
RAGIII
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 01:59 PM UTC
Stephen,
I like the wide open format! Maybe a chance to finish my SPAD VII and AlbatrosDV...... Perhaps something new? If Rodens Nieuports come out in time I would certainly be up for one of the 24s or 27s. I am in!
RAGIII
Kornbeef
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 02:01 PM UTC
With a hanger full of queens I'm sure I can find something to suit...there again my Roland is on its way...Oh decisions decisions!
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 02:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Stephen, I will help if you can catch me buh bye.



All I have to do is rattle an WNW Albatros kit in the box. You will be drawn to it like a fly to honey. Muuuhhaaahh! (doing my best Dr. Evil voice).
stugiiif
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 03:18 PM UTC
Personally, I think the idea of limiting one kit to specific modelers is kind of limiting your participation base. I.E. Mr Lawson and the Altatros, and Terri the Pflaz D.IIIa. I know for many others including myself new kits are few and far in between, and aftermarket items are an expense that can't be afforded. I would not want to limit anyone from building my choice in this build, and would take offense to being told the first kit I got in a year would not qualify and could not participate because someone else had gotten the WnW Hansa Bradenburg W.29. I think this would actually be bad for the site as a whole and a step backwards for Campaigns/Group Builds. I'd rethink before you decide to which way to go with this. Personally I'd like to actually build my first WWI aircraft, but I find restricting one kit manufacturer and and kit to one person is not in the spirit of this site and limits building the hobby as whole.
Kornbeef
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 08:40 PM UTC
Steve,

A very good point and one very well put. I think the idea of one person one kit, sounds good at fist thought but as Steve points out it limits some from building what they would wish to and would be detrimental.

So if we are doing builds and reviews as suggested, why not run it as a double, where the best build and best review can both be judged seperately? I see the argument against having several reviews of the same basic kit but saying that..Look at the different build logs for the Albie DVa for instance, every one highlights different aspect of the kit, some completely missed by others in their logs or kit reviews.

I know its getting more and more confusing already but as Steve points out and I have to agree not all of us can afford or have the luxury to buy or build something extra.

Another aspect is thet once all the choice plump kits are taken it leaves little choice or inspiration for anyone else to enter, not everyone wants to dissect and superdetail but would like to build a WNW or Roden kit. And on that point, how many Gotha builders will have their nose put out of joint if they arent the first and can't build this long anticipated monster as part of the GB.

Steve has raised a good valid point and it deserves serious consideration.

Keith
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 09:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Steve,

A very good point and one very well put. I think the idea of one person one kit, sounds good at fist thought but as Steve points out it limits some from building what they would wish to and would be detrimental.

So if we are doing builds and reviews as suggested, why not run it as a double, where the best build and best review can both be judged seperately? I see the argument against having several reviews of the same basic kit but saying that..Look at the different build logs for the Albie DVa for instance, every one highlights different aspect of the kit, some completely missed by others in their logs or kit reviews.

I know its getting more and more confusing already but as Steve points out and I have to agree not all of us can afford or have the luxury to buy or build something extra.

Another aspect is thet once all the choice plump kits are taken it leaves little choice or inspiration for anyone else to enter, not everyone wants to dissect and superdetail but would like to build a WNW or Roden kit. And on that point, how many Gotha builders will have their nose put out of joint if they arent the first and can't build this long anticipated monster as part of the GB.

Steve has raised a good valid point and it deserves serious consideration.

Keith



Very well put Keith and Steve.

– I think to limit the groupbuild in such a way would be counterproductive. I for one have a "building schedule" of what I would like to finish in the coming year or so. One or two of these will surely fit into the GB – but if I can't enter them because someone else already has – then I will probably stay out of the GB altogether.

Mikael
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 09:54 PM UTC
Steve, Keith and Mikael; Hold on gentle folk that "one kit" idea was not mine or in my comments. It was a suggestion from a member. Just like you. I am weighing all the comments. As it stands I don't have a reason to change my original call.
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 09:56 PM UTC
Just bringing this up to keep it fresh in your minds.


Quoted Text

Ok here is the deal.

We are not going to make everyone happy. But we will press on anyway.

The reason we have a one manufacturer contests / GB annually is the manufacturer takes an interest in the GB and contributes. In the past we have had Eduard, Roden and WNW all participating singly.

Now we come to the next step multiple manufactures taking interest. This benefits all - but to do them justice (an encourage their interests) we have to have a large number of participants in each category.

To sticky GB topics we have to be fair to the other manufacturers (even the smaller ones). This year we are going to open the GB to all manufacturers all scales. All types (single or multiple seaters). I will approach each manufacturer and ask them to "vote" on their favorite company 's product in a build. This will include aftermarket parts & pieces. With the "best" being honoured with products from these companies.

I will open it to all builds - new , unfinished hangar queens, injection, resin metal. It will include all Early Aviation subject upto 1934. Final rules to be drafted and submitted in a day or so. Now, there are NO gaurantees as to a manufacturer's participation.

Now "someone" has said that we should have each build reviewed? I can see that being a good opportunity for everyone to get their feet wet. Each participant will submit in their build thread (in Early Aviation title) a blog with the content being bent toward its submission to Aeroscale for publishing on the front page. I may even have to get the "someone" on board to help keep track of things. . .now who was that? . . . . ._

You should pick a past published review and use it for a template when writing yours. NO plagerism please, minimal cut and paste. These have to be your submissions.

Kornbeef
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Posted: Monday, January 03, 2011 - 10:36 PM UTC
Yes Stephen, I'm well aware of your plan, I was just giving my two penth worth to other ideas put forward by other parties.

K
CaptainA
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 12:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

All I have to do is rattle an WNW Albatros kit in the box. You will be drawn to it like a fly to honey. Muuuhhaaahh! (doing my best Dr. Evil voice).



Albatros? where's the Albatros? I think I heard an Albatros. Did anybody else hear that Albatros?


Quoted Text

Hold on gentle folk that "one kit" idea was not mine or in my comments. It was a suggestion from a member. Just like you. I am weighing all the comments. As it stands I don't have a reason to change my original call.



That was my idea. I thought it was a good idea, but I understand Steve's point of view, and yield to it. I now agree it would limit modelers who have their heart set on a specific kit, but get beat out because somebody else called for it first. It is good to throw out these ideas and get feedback.

I like the idea of Best Review if Staff Members judge it. If Aeroscale Staff does the judging, I feel it would be fair. If a manufacturer does the judging, I think it would be hard for them to pick a review that is critical or points out shortcomings with their kit, resulting in skewed reviews. Also, I think if two modelers do the same kit, the first review posted would be at a disadvantage for obvious reasons. Easy solution for this is that all reviews can be submitted, and held by the staff until all reviews are in.

I know I heard an Albatros.
mbittner
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 05:32 AM UTC
Since the GB is going the route of a review, I'll have to back-out. Have fun, all!!
stugiiif
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 08:51 AM UTC
Wow, i lit off a powder keg there. Sorry that was not my intention at all. Now I am still willing to join and hope my soon to arrive W.29 fits into the decided criteria of this Campaign. Now on the issue of the reveiw I do have concerns, Mainly that I have no references other than those posted on the WnW webpage. I'm curious as to where to locate information on the airframe itself, my public library does not have any of the Windsock Datafiles, and I'm curious as to where I'd even begin to find other references.


Matt- I don't think a reveiw in full is required for the Campaign, at least I don't see it as a decided requirement, but then again just pointing out difficulties in the the build is what most modelers look for in a reveiw. Last time was at a show somewhere most of the modelers took accuracy at level of "Walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck. must be a duck." However following one of Steffan's build logs and noting gaps and sink holes it might encourage me to buy that kit. However, Stephen has stated that nothing has been set in stone, and it may be likely that a regular build log will be fine.
dmopath
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 08:54 AM UTC
I'm still interested, but will wait until final rules are set before asking innocent questions and making final decisions...
CaptainA
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 12:16 PM UTC
In order to do a build review, it is not written in stone that you need to use references. They are nice to check dimensions, but it was not my intention to have everybody run out and buy expensive books.

In my opinion, a good build review shows how a kit goes together, sink marks in bad spots, if the decals fit and are opaque enough to cover up the paint, mistakes in the instructions, and a step by step photo documentation of the build. It should be unbiased and supportive of your position of whether or not we should run out and plop down hard earned money to own it. I would hope the history, as containined in the instructions, would be enough to suffice if this suggestion becomes a rule. Remember, this is not a test of how much you are willing to spend. It is a hobby, and an opportunity to write up a review that people all over the world will use when looking for a kit of your chosen subject. I have written a few reviews, and they really aren't hard to do. Write up some captions and let your pictures do the talking. Reviews are really important to our hobby and even to Aeroscale. And it seems most of the reviews fall upon a few people. If it is a double contest, you might not even need to submit a review. Complete the build part. the review part, or both parts.

Now we got Stephen's head spinning. Such is the life of the Commanding General.
warreni
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 01:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Actually, if we are going to do build reviews, we should make sure we don't have multiple builds of the same kit. I would like to submit that when we enlist, we pick the kit we want to do, and that kit can't be done by another modeler, unless the modeler uses AM decals or PE etc., that make the kit or review different. I think there is more than enough kits to go around. That means we need to have a sign up thread when we enlist.

Stephen, I will help if you can catch me buh bye.



Hmm.. I don't think there ARE that many kits to go around Karl.. I think we need an ordinary GB for WNW kits as well, as you said WNW Part 2, or WNW 2011.. I like building kits, not writing long reviews about building them...
edoardo
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 06:30 PM UTC
hi all,
i'll add my 2 cents here, if i may.
the idea of the group build and of the review, as pointed out by stephen, is, to me, totally clear and very reasonable: in this way you do create a hub between manufacturers and modellers that can bring to a win-win situation for both (not considering the benefices for the site as well).
now, i lost somewere the review part, but i am really glad it is offered this possibility to all of us. in my opinion, the most important feature of a review is that it comes out from a modeller's desk, not from the manufacturer's marketing division. so, either be it neatpicks, rivet counting or a step by step building guide it is still very valuable and both are needed as it enlight the way ahead for the modeller. so i think that anyone can find the stile of writing it better suits him and still do a great job for the rest of us.
personally i'll be very proud if asked to write a review, or better still, if one of my reviews would be picked up by peers to be actually published.
of course some details have to be screwed in, but i am confident this would be the easy part once the heart is set...
so go ahead stephen, i am with you
ciao
edo
Kornbeef
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Posted: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 11:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

In order to do a build review, it is not written in stone that you need to use references. They are nice to check dimensions, but it was not my intention to have everybody run out and buy expensive books.



Agreed Carl,

To some its only important to know a kit's build flaws and if it builds well and is a reasonable representation of what it is intended to be. Fit decalling and basic flaws or improvements. They want to know their Albatros DVa looks like a DVa and not worry the fuel tanks the wrong shape or the belt chutes arent quite long enough or access panel is in the wrong place (unlike me) That is what a review should aim to be.

Build logs are the place to put the nitpick flaws I feel.

The other thing is that if a review gets too heavy it can be seen as an attack at a manufacturer whether deserved or not here isnt the place for it.. It's all to easy to snipe at manufacturers and maybe a group build one day of old Airfix or Aurora kits would make us appreciate what we have right now, flaws and all todays kits are treasures in comparison. (I know I gripe and moan in my build logs...frustration over common sense)