Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
KotS GB 2011 Junkers J.I JackFlash
gajouette
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Posted: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 - 02:13 AM UTC
Stephen,
One heck of a great project my friend.I absolutely love the idea of including the downward firing MG's as you have.Something I'm not seen done by anyone else.
Thanks for such an outstanding thread and I'm looking forward to more on the MG mountings.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 - 06:40 PM UTC
Thank Gregory,

Here are the WNW Spandau breeches with the Air Master Spandau PE details. They are mounted on the upper supports that will be attached to the base plate.

OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 - 08:46 PM UTC
Hello Stephen,

Interesting progress – and looking really good as well – looking forward to the continuation

Best Regards

Mikael
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 - 09:14 PM UTC
Thanks for the kind words Mikael!

It seems lately I have gotten my second wind. I have been dealing previously with a multitude of personal issues, including some health concerns. But I have taken some of my own medicine. Whittling away on many fronts sometimes only lets me get to my builds far less than I like. But you have to make time to do the things you enjoy. Never take yourself too seriously, but be thankful for everyday above ground. Now lets Model On!
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 - 01:41 AM UTC
Hello again Stephen,

Sad to hear about your health issues, but good that it seems to be going in the right direction, and that you seem to have some time to build. Like you say, you need to take the time to do the things you like – and everyday you stay healthy and happy, with some moments of doing what you like, is a good day indeed. Hope you'll have many of those in future.

Best Regards

Mikael
wing_nut
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Posted: Thursday, September 08, 2011 - 10:04 AM UTC
I can almost smell the gun oil.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, September 10, 2011 - 09:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I can almost smell the gun oil.



You are a silvertongued devil! Now remember the WNW website image from earlier?
thegirl
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Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2011 - 05:00 AM UTC
Cool ! Looking forward to seeing how the ammo feeds where with this set up .


Terri
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - 09:23 PM UTC
Ok some inprogress shots of the base plate and some of the Grandt line bolt heads inplace.



JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 10:50 PM UTC
The guns are inplace now. And as Terri mentioned next the ammo drums & their support.







JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 09:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Image here is from the WNW site and were taken by Giorgio Dorat. They show the rear cockpit of the Junkers J.I in Milan. . .The divider wall between the front and rear cockpit has been removed to accomidate the twin Spandau installation. . . "





Ok now for the twin ammo drum frame. The more I started plotting available space and how much space this frame occupies I have come to the initial conclusion that the ammo drums are larger non standard types. As a beginning guess I am thinking that each drum held about 400 rounds. That is specifically why there are no accomidations for extra ammo drums.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 10:17 PM UTC
Back on page 1 I stated,

Quoted Text

". . .The gun mounts are staggered because the ammo drums were stacked.

The spindle that holds the ammo drums in place has two different thickness'. This is so they could use drums with two different sized holes. Why would they do that? The ammo drums had to be different sized so not to get them mixed up for the target that had been chosen to hit. Again why? Because there were two different types of ammo used.

1. Normal, exploding & tracer rounds for sighting in or hitting soft targets - human.
2. Armour piercing tracer rounds. The crew had to carry special documents so if brought down they might not be criminally charged for carrying them.

So it seems this aircraft was designed to hit both soft (human) & hard targets (Tanks and convoy vehicles).

The Central Powers developed their own variants of the tracer and the "LS" was in use by late 1916. LS stood for Leuchtspur - luminous tracing ammunition. An armour piercing tracer was introduced in early 1917, known as the PL - Panzer Leuchtspur. British tests showed this round to be almost as effective as a standard armour piercing round. As has been noted in tech manuals, as the tracing element (usually phosphorous) burned out, bullet weight changed and trajectory was affected. However, since most ground war combats were conducted nearly at pistol range, trajectory shift woulda been minimal. . ."

". . .In addition some German aircraft carried a normal round intended to explode with a puff of smoke after some 350-400 meters. The purpose was to give the pilot an idea of range rather than that the explosion was intended to do any damage since rifle caliber rounds were to small to carry a meaningful explosive charge.

German pilots had to get permission for every time they went up with incendiary ammo ( LS or PL)- therefore the pilot had a passport/booklet saying that he was allowed to use this ammo for a (balloon or vehicle) attack. His commander had to sign it verifying the use for every such mission. .."



I see that rearming in flight would be entirely impractical for one man and there was simply no space left for extra drums. Another point seems that they made no provision for spent shell casings except there might have been canvas bags under the Spandaus. For 600 - 800 casings to collect in the floor of the rear cockpit would be hazardous. Then there is the spent ammo belts.

The rear cockpit gunner would be mainly beneficial to clear jambs and fire the guns on signal from the pilot. If the triggering mechanisms were on the right side of the rear cockpit then it explains the bowden cable transversing the rear cockpit bulkhead under the seat. There is a section of conduit that shrouds the remaining cable.

JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, September 19, 2011 - 05:53 PM UTC
Now doing a bit of research on the possibilities I got with Spandau authority Dave Watts, "...The maximum is quoted by A. Imrie's Fokker Triplane book on page 117, Imrie states for the Dr.I under "WEIGHT SCHEDULE" "2 ammunition belts (500 cartridges each), 12.8kg each. (Both together) 25.6kg...."

". . .Fokker Dr.I Triplane, page 221, Paul Leaman states, "The triplane's ammunition tanks could hold a total of some 650 rounds per gun, but to save weight, this amount was usually reduced to 500 rounds per weapon. . ."

". . .From Neal O'Connor's Volume VI Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany in WWI, page 200 we have a great shot of loading the ammo for a Fokker Eindecker carrying an LMG 08. You can clearly see the narrow two-rivet belt. I've tried to count most of the rounds in the belt and calculate it to be between 550 - 600, or possibly more. Of interest, if you look closely between the gents feet on the ground you can see what may be another ammo belt still spooled up and standing up on the ends of the rounds. Or possibly a flying helmet?. . ."

Dave goes on to say it probably depends on the type of fabric ammo belt used. Some seemed to hold more or less. I am guessing here also that it may depend on whether its a single seater or two seater application.

Essentially the Dr.I does seem to have a max load of about 500 rounds per belt (if a two rivet belt was used.) I stand corrected. But I wonder if this was maxed out at all times in 1917? In 1918 there were examples of captured aircraft with fewer round counts. In a rotary such as the F.I or Dr.I would less weight give the pilot max fuel use?

Going into the "number of rounds used" I did a quick search on the subject of rounds fired by single aircraft and everything from 40 - 450 rounds used in a dogfight was quoted. I came up with 419 instances.

I am also checking out Tony Williams website: Military gun and ammunition website http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
and discussion forum http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 - 11:46 PM UTC
Here was my first run at the heart of the ammo reels. Next to fit a 3 piece shroud.

OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 12:25 AM UTC
Very Nice indeed Stephen – those ammo bands look the business. Look forward to seeing them in place.

Mikael
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2011 - 04:50 PM UTC
Just picking up a thread from a year ago.

Pulpinator's Junkers J.I

My build from a year ago.
Stephen's build

dmopath's build
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, November 04, 2011 - 07:52 AM UTC
Greetings all,

Doing a bit of tricky work on this bird and marrying the drums and the guns while keeping the drum shroud (3 piece) clear. I am beginning to understand why the original was done in sheet metal. Gadzooks and Hot Marimba!
gajouette
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Posted: Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 01:01 AM UTC
Stephen,
Excellent work my friend.Sounds like you need a extra pair of hands fitting the drums,guns and the shroud.As a personal note I hope your health issues are doing better My friend.Take care of yourself,take the doctor's advise and keep modeling on.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 02:44 AM UTC
Here goes. The gun cradle parts are cut.


JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 02:47 AM UTC
Then the installation. I missed the location of the base hole by 1/8" so I had to fill and redrill.


I am going to have to add about 3-4 rounds to the belt for the outer gun.
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2011 - 07:00 AM UTC
Some quick shots of the Benz Bz.IV with a bit of solder for sparkplug wires. Its easy to simulate the rubber boots that are covering the sparkplugs themselves.





thegirl
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2011 - 04:03 PM UTC
the gun cradles turned out super Stephen ! What did you use for the ammo belts ?
Engine also is coming along very well as well . Looking forward to your next up-date


Terri
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, November 28, 2011 - 04:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

the gun cradles turned out super Stephen ! What did you use for the ammo belts? Engine also is coming along very well as well . Looking forward to your next up-date Terri



Thank you Terri.
Due to the thickness of the interior walls I had to make several minor compromises. The Ammo belts were left over Part of Poland PE items from their 1:32 Fokker Dr.I fret. Remember the old Roden 1:32 Fokker D.VI I did for that GB? I chopped up the PE set for that build. Then laid a strip of painted decal film down simulating the canvas belt. Though to do it right I should have added some rivets. Next time eh? Next I'm checking the linkage setup in Wombat58's build to add some fun to mine. The hinges for the cowling is always something I wanted to enhance too. I am all set to start my vacation on Dec.11 and have some time slated to add the finishing touches to the assemblies.
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 10:18 PM UTC
Remember my struggle with the kit bungee chords? Well I went with my usual method of adding these.



JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 07:04 PM UTC
Just before I closed it up. The Bezels are from HGW.