World War II: Germany
Aircraft of Germany in WWII.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
1/32 Bf110 + painted on markings
JohnVasco
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2013 - 09:31 AM UTC
The curved plate above the starboard inner exhaust stack was, as previously mentioned, to deflect exhaust gases away from that intake above the stack. It was only on the starboard inner side, as no equivalet intake was on the port side cowling. Here's a decent pic of it:


Hope this helps.
chukw1
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2013 - 09:55 AM UTC
John to the rescue! I've been meaning get get a copy of that book, John- I very much enjoy yours and Fernando's book of profiles- cheers! Now I can go truly mad plumbing that Daimler-Benz. That hinged panel resting on the exhaust is another great detail.
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2013 - 08:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mal, knowing and being artistically enabled is too different things. If it wasn't for someone inventing the ruler, I couldn't draw a straight line.

Joel


well Joel I'll take that as a compliment then I was considering offering a free set of masks, a cream tea (that's worth £10.00 here in Cornwall) and possibly a bacon butty to modellers who hire our caravan here at the Mullion holiday park. I thought that if anyone took me up on this that they could spend the day with me and draw their own set of masks and cut them. Maybe that might be wishful thinking?


Quoted Text

Gentlemen, I certainly feel for your frustration. Just as a point of curiosity, did you find the errata by Brett Green helpful that I had suggested earlier? Take care
Jim


Sorry Jim, no, I find it impossible to find anything on Hypertension and I avoid it like the plague due to the state of mind of some of the posters on there, from back when I built my 1/48 Bf110. I asked a question and got told, "Google is a wonderful thing", what! I then found Armorama and never looked back. That now reminds me of the same question which I am sure that John Vasco will have the answer to, I will ask it at the end; thanks for reminding me Jim


Quoted Text

Wonderful wespe, Mal! I wonder how this will work in 1/48? I've take a look into those exhaust deflectors- in addition to keeping the instrument cluster clean, they do a nice job of keeping all that nasty burnt gas out of the supercharger intake as well. Handy, those German engineers. ;D

As for the cowling windows, photos show them on both sides- and on early and late aircraft. Photos also show them not in evidence on the outer sides of the nacelles- and one pic of a G model I found definitely shows the window partially painted over. The instrument cluster was mounted to the engine mount at it's top vertice. I doubt there were clusters on the outer sides- I have seen photos of exposed engines with no outer clusters mounted. Check your kit's engine mounts for a pinhole to attach the cluster. The Squadron walk Around has some decent shots of the Battle of Britain museum' G engines in all their neglected glory!

Roll cage? I've heard that it's only for later models, but can't confirm.
Chuck


Hi Chuck, if it works in 1/32 it will work in 1/48, so is a Bf110 going to be your next build? One done in the Wespe markings and with all your attention to detail would be a great advert for not only my masks but Johns books as well Now the one deflector makes sense, I hadn't seen the fact that there is only an intake on the starboard cowling. Dragons poor instructions do not instil a sense of belief!
Great Chuck that confirms my thoughts about the gauge windows, again I only doubted it because of the poor instructions.
I have checked the engine and the engine mounts for a pin hole but I could not find one, but see my response to Johns post below


Quoted Text

The dials on the engine. Here's Fernando Estanislau's drawing of it for our book on the 'C, D & E':


Wonderful, many thanks John. The pictures of the engines with the dial cluster in place helped me to track down the locating hole for the kit part. As I said the instructions don't even show it and there is no visible attachment point. Using your photos I could work out where it should go but without a positive location I had decided that I would just fix it in place behind the glazing; it is obviously fixed to the engine mount, which is what I had sort of worked out, and then I found the hole, flashed over on the rear of the engine bearer So thank you very much for all of the input on this, it is very much appreciated and I will be getting your book John, can you give me the title please?
And now a couple of other questions:
1. What is the piece of equipment that is on the forward port side of the cockpit decking, the piece with the 2 holes in it that look like instrument bezels. It looks like some sort of signalling device, I really just want to know if the apertures should be glazed and should they be coloured? This is the part that I asked about on Hypertension and got told to go and check out Google! I have never been able to find out what it is so I am curious.


2. Can anyone confirm if the roll cage should be fitted?

Again thanks for all the input, it really does make this worthwhile I have done something everyday, still and yesterday I glued the nose MGs into position, another area with less than adequate instructions, but I over came that. I did make the mistake of test fitting the tray and guns into the nose. It seemed to be a bit of a squeeze, which was worrying, but the reason became clear after I bit the bullet and gave it a little more force. The clamp on the most forward MG was fouling the innards slightly and when this came clear everything was fine However I can't now remove the tray without damaging the clamp! It won't be a major deal, but I will have to paint the guns in situe which is something that I wanted to avoid I won't sweat it though and the guns do fit perfectly I will be try the wasp mask out today, hopefully but I have a set of interesting masks to complete for Jamie Haggo which involve a snake So hopefully some more pictures soon
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Posted: Thursday, November 28, 2013 - 10:29 PM UTC
Hi Mal

Google is a wonderful thing - but so are books. Squadron's Bf 110G Walk Around seems to identify your mystery box as the marker beacon receiver set. Hopefully John can confirm that. It shows up in his book on the earlier variants too, and seems to be basically a plain unit with a data-plate on the front lower right. A cable runs up to the base of the antenna mast, with more cables running down the canopy frame through the cockpit decking and away to the rear.

I think the "roll cage" is just Dragon's way of representing the interior structure of the middle canopy section.

All the best

Rowan
DougN1
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 02:11 AM UTC
Looks like you've got most of your answers Mal

I'll just add that when I looked at a bunch of photos of C/D/E's to see if I should paint or leave clear the 3 circles on both sides of each cowl, the large majority of aircraft did not have them painted. As the cowls were designed to be interchangeable, keeping them non-painted on both sides would facilitate that. John's book on the 110 was extremely helpful during my build, so I highly recommend picking it up if you can.

I just ended up putting some instrument decals on each of the cluster parts and attaching them directly to the cowl on my build - not that you can really see them anyway. Speaking of which, not to be immodest, but there should be lots of helpful info there for you

Now let's see some more parts glued together!

Doug
JohnVasco
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 03:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text


John, can you give me the title please?
And now a couple of other questions:
1. What is the piece of equipment that is on the forward port side of the cockpit decking, the piece with the 2 holes in it that look like instrument bezels. It looks like some sort of signalling device, I really just want to know if the apertures should be glazed and should they be coloured? This is the part that I asked about on Hypertension and got told to go and check out Google! I have never been able to find out what it is so I am curious.


2. Can anyone confirm if the roll cage should be fitted?



Title is: Messerschmitt Bf 110 C, D and E An illustrated study Variants - Weapons - Equipment. John Vasco and Fernando Estanislau. (Available from amazon.)

Question 1. Not sure exactly what you mean, but here's a few pics of the port interior of a Bf 110 D that might help:

















Question 2. As far as I am aware, the roll cage that was in the 'G' nightfighter series did not appear on the C, D & E series, but I may be wrong. As always, reference to a photo of the actual machine is the best confirmation of what is exactly fitted.

Hope this helps.
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 03:27 AM UTC
Following this build thread is just a complete joy. The level and amount of detail photographs supplied by John is something I've never seen before, and the written information is just as astonishing. To say I'm getting a 1st class education, is putting it mildly.

Joel
Merlin
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 08:58 AM UTC
Hi Mal

Re-reading your question, I've mistaken the part you're asking about. I think the part with holes in that attaches to the cockpit decking is just a mounting plate for the Fernbedienungsgerät F9 (long range reception equipment). The unit is shown on page 45 of John's book and seems to have been moved from below the cockpit decking to a bracket above it on the inside of the canopy. You can see it in the fifth of John's colour photos in this thread.

I though you meant the item mounted further up with cables attached, which is apparently the marker beacon receiver.

All the best

Rowan
rochaped
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 10:11 AM UTC
Damm, all these fabulous photos made me realized the huge amounts of euros spent on luftwaffe books, some of them focusing the 110, and none delivers anything remotly as clear as these presented by John Vasco. Here's a good one for Santa
Merlin
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 10:23 AM UTC
Hi there

John - thank you! These original colour photos are amazing! - a gold mine of info showing the mix of RLM 02 and RLM 66 pre-painted components in a way that B&W shots leave you only guessing at. And where's all that yellow cabling that we modellers go to such lengths to depict ?! (because someone must have once said all Luftwaffe electrical cables were yellow... )

All the best

Rowan
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 01:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Mal

Google is a wonderful thing - but so are books. Squadron's Bf 110G Walk Around seems to identify your mystery box as the marker beacon receiver set. Hopefully John can confirm that. It shows up in his book on the earlier variants too, and seems to be basically a plain unit with a data-plate on the front lower right. A cable runs up to the base of the antenna mast, with more cables running down the canopy frame through the cockpit decking and away to the rear.

I think the "roll cage" is just Dragon's way of representing the interior structure of the middle canopy section.

All the best

Rowan



Hi Mal, I don't blame you for feeling that way, I apologize for bringing it up and certainly meant no disrespect. I too fee at home here and have always been treated with respect. I. Was just trying to help and found the errata helpful when I built my Dragon Zoerster. Anyway, keep up the good work, you are making good progress. I'm looking forward to seeing how the mask works out. Even the AM decals were a pain. I think they turned out ok though. I posted my Wesspe build here, not "the other guy" BTW. Take care
Jim
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 06:22 PM UTC
Great thread, loads of use full information, but waiting for more build photo's from Mal

Saying that and after seeing some of John's photos here and knowing I have a hole in my reference library I have just ordered John's Bf-110 book for when I decide to build my 1/48 Eduard Bf-110C
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Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 10:17 PM UTC
Thanks John, I am definitely getting your book

I will add an arrow to my picture to point it out, but it can be sen in your 5th photo, on the upper decking adjacent to the instrument cluster, the thing with the wheel and handle at the top, almost centre of the pic

Many thanks for posting these pictures John, I have now found the way that I will depict the cockpit repaint.
Quoted Text

John - thank you! These original colour photos are amazing! - a gold mine of info showing the mix of RLM 02 and RLM 66 pre-painted components in a way that B&W shots leave you only guessing at. And where's all that yellow cabling that we modellers go to such lengths to depict ?! (because someone must have once said all Luftwaffe electrical cables were yellow... )

The upper deck, window framing and the bulkhead to which the radio boxes are attached will be in RLM02 and the rest repainted in RLM66; this makes perfect sense because why would you bother to repaint the window framing and you wouldn't need to take out the radio equipment. I am going to try and show the floor worn through in places revealing both the 02 and the aluminium The pictures also give me a heads up for the labeling and data plates around the cockpit for which I have bought some Airscale stickers I have also bought some of their instrument stickers (I don't do decals!).


Quoted Text

Following this build thread is just a complete joy. The level and amount of detail photographs supplied by John is something I've never seen before, and the written information is just as astonishing. To say I'm getting a 1st class education, is putting it mildly.

Joel


Couldn't agree more, this is what I was hoping for when I started this, my knowledge of the Bf 110 has moved on in leaps and bounds, John's book is clearly the reference to have


Quoted Text

Hi Mal

Re-reading your question, I've mistaken the part you're asking about. I think the part with holes in that attaches to the cockpit decking is just a mounting plate for the Fernbedienungsgerät F9 (long range reception equipment). The unit is shown on page 45 of John's book and seems to have been moved from below the cockpit decking to a bracket above it on the inside of the canopy. You can see it in the fifth of John's colour photos in this thread.

I though you meant the item mounted further up with cables attached, which is apparently the marker beacon receiver.

All the best


Thanks Rowan, that makes sense, I think that because the holes are depicted as "bezels" I assumed that the unit was some sort of signaling device. Lightening holes would have an inwards curving edge from being pressed, so as a mounting plate I am considering filing off the "bezels" and rounding the edges, if I can get at it easy enough


Quoted Text

Damm, all these fabulous photos made me realized the huge amounts of euros spent on luftwaffe books, some of them focusing the 110, and none delivers anything remotly as clear as these presented by John Vasco. Here's a good one for Santa


To true


Quoted Text

Hi Mal, I don't blame you for feeling that way, I apologize for bringing it up and certainly meant no disrespect. I too fee at home here and have always been treated with respect. I. Was just trying to help and found the errata helpful when I built my Dragon Zoerster. Anyway, keep up the good work, you are making good progress. I'm looking forward to seeing how the mask works out. Even the AM decals were a pain. I think they turned out ok though. I posted my Wesspe build here, not "the other guy" BTW. Take care
Jim


No disrespect felt Jim I would certainly take a look if I thought that I could find it but it is impossible on Hypertension. The only time I look in there is when my customers post pictures and send me a link. There are some great modellers on there but there are many, sorry, some, who think that they are the only ones who's opinion counts!
I failed to start the trials with the Wespe markings as I had forgotten that we were having dinner at the golf club (no I don't play golf!) so I had to run away. I have a fence to put up today but I will try and start on it later.


Quoted Text

reat thread, loads of use full information, but waiting for more build photo's from Mal


Hang in there Lucky, I've had some fun with the MGs so will post some pics later today or tomorrow
JohnVasco
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Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 01:00 AM UTC
Thanks for the kind words.

Some more cockpit shots:








JohnVasco
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Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 01:03 AM UTC
And a few more:










DougN1
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Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 05:00 AM UTC
Mal,

In the photos above (Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 11:11 AM GMT), the front cockpit (and decking) are in RLM66 and the entire rear cockpit area was in RLM02 (except for some equipment boxes.

Again, the reason for the repaint in RLM66 was to cut down on glare from the lighter RLM02, so it wouldn't seem to make sense to repaint the lower part of the cockpit on RLM66, while leaving the upper decking (which would be the cause of the most glare on the glass) in RLM02.

While I can't find the actual photo, I have seen one where the rear cockpit is RLM66 on the upper half and RLM02 on the lower half and floor (which is how I painted my build).

By the way, the photos John has graciously posted are also in his excellent book. I highly encourage everyone following this build to order it as it is the best reference by far on the 110.

Doug
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Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 09:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

By the way, the photos John has graciously posted are also in his excellent book... Doug



Hi there

Has there been a revised edition of the book? The colour shots aren't in my 2008 copy, and I was a bit bemused by the mention of the profile in Mal's other thread - again, not in my book.

All the best

Rowan
JohnVasco
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Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 12:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

By the way, the photos John has graciously posted are also in his excellent book... Doug



Hi there

Has there been a revised edition of the book? The colour shots aren't in my 2008 copy, and I was a bit bemused by the mention of the profile in Mal's other thread - again, not in my book.

All the best

Rowan



Rowan,
No, there has been no reprint.

What I have posted in this thread have mainly not been in the 'C, D & E' book. We were restricted to 192 pages. Believe me, we could have used another 50-60 pages! So the shots here are those that were deemed to have been sufficiently covered by other photos/line drawings by the Publisher. The Publisher also inserted some of their own photos, making a total balls of one caption: page 33, bottom, is one that they put in, and captioned it as a 'C-1'! It's a 'D' variant, and the fuselage band identifies it as being Balkans campaign in the Spring of 1941. 'A little knowledge...' is never truer than in that photo and caption. I somehow refrained from picking up the telephone and giving them a total sandblasting...
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Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 07:26 PM UTC
Thanks for these as well John, the part that I have been harping on about is shown in picture 4


Quoted Text

In the photos above (Posted: Friday, November 29, 2013 - 11:11 AM GMT), the front cockpit (and decking) are in RLM66 and the entire rear cockpit area was in RLM02 (except for some equipment boxes.


Hi Doug,
Maybe my eyesight is failing I see RLM66 rear cockpit with RLM02 upper decking, radio bulkhead and glazing frames?
Jessie_C
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Posted: Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 07:37 PM UTC
I think that's just shadow. Compare the colour of the radio boxes to the sidewalls they're mounted on.
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Posted: Sunday, December 01, 2013 - 01:31 AM UTC
? Look at the bulkhead that the radio boxes are attached to, that looks to be the same colour as the upper decking and that is in more shadow than the rest of the interior. A thin coat of RLM66 over RLM02 would look lighter tan a full on fresh coat. To me it looks like a repaint and the side wall doesn't look to be in that much shadow, if there was a lot of shadow the area immediately below the upper decking would be darker, because of a shadow cast by it. So either there is some good light or a flash was used?

In any event the idea of the upper decking, window frames and radio bulkhead, left in 02 while the rest was repainted makes sense and it is an opportunity to show that a repaint was carried out. However I have been presented with another scenario which would make the repainted interior idea void, I think? I will post a picture tomorrow.
Joel_W
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Posted: Sunday, December 01, 2013 - 01:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think that's just shadow. Compare the colour of the radio boxes to the sidewalls they're mounted on.



From my perspective, Jessica is right. The fuselage color variation is caused by the changing light.

Joel
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Posted: Sunday, December 01, 2013 - 03:01 AM UTC
Mal,

If you look at the other photos (directly underneath the one you posted) of the same rear cockpit, it is clear that the entire rear cockpit is RLM 02 (grey green) - it appears darker in the photo you posted due to shadow as Jessica metioned. The other photos of this aircraft show the pilots section was entirely repainted in RLM 66 (black grey).

So, having looked at every possible Bf110 C/D/E cockpit I could, there are 4 options confirmed by photos:

1) Entire cockpit RLM 02 (grey green)
2) Entire cockpit repainted in RLM 66 (black grey)
3) Forward (pilots) cockpit area on RLM 66 (black grey) and the rear cockpit area remains in RLM 02 (grey green)
4) Forward (pilots) cockpit area in RLM 66 (black grey) and rear cockpit area upper section in RLM 66 (black grey) and lower section in RLM 02 (grey green).

All of these options conform to the reason (as stated in previous posts) for repainting the cockpit at all - which is to reduce glare/reflections from the lighter RLM 02 (grey green) on the glass.

Personally, as that is the reason for the repaint, I can't see why they would bother to repaint any part of the cockpit in RLM 66 (black grey) while leaving the upper parts that would reflect glare on the glass in RLM 02 (grey green).

However, that being said, we can't eliminate any possibility of color combinations, as we don't have photos of every 110 C/D/E cockpit at every point in their service careers

Doug
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Posted: Sunday, December 01, 2013 - 04:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So either there is some good light or a flash was used?



No flash was used. It is a still from a 20 minute film.
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Posted: Monday, December 02, 2013 - 06:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Personally, as that is the reason for the repaint, I can't see why they would bother to repaint any part of the cockpit in RLM 66 (black grey) while leaving the upper parts that would reflect glare on the glass in RLM 02 (grey green).


Doug I take your point but the small amount of 02 reflecting off the glass, if just the upper decking and framing was left unpainted, would be minimal and there would be a good reason for leaving it unpainted, as then the glazing wouldn't need to be masked? I still think that the light is playing tricks as there is no shadow under the upper decking and the radio bulkhead, in the picture that I re-posted, is clearly 02 and would be in more shadow than the rest of the interior?

Anyway this is all getting a bit side tracked and I need to make a decision on how I will paint the interior as this is now stopping me from moving on. Clearly there is no definitive answer to this so whatever I do will be wrong to some However another spanner has been thrown into the works Chuck has sent me a picture from the Eduard Royal boxing of their Bf110 and it is of their interpretation of the paint scheme of this actual aircraft:

This shows RLM70, 71 over 76 with 02 over sprayed in swathes across both the original colours. If this is correct then I would think that the under surface would be 65, not 76. With this paint scheme (assuming that it is correct) wouldn't the cockpit be 02? The other bit (apart from the 76) that I don't get, is that I thought that the repaint (to 76,74,75) happened when the aircraft were updated to the C-7 standard, so would this be of the previous incarnation and not a C-7? What was it before being a C-7?
I can see this stalling now, unless I make a decision!