A kite! To improve radio range. Did anyone ever use it? Successfully? Bot really what I was expecting, Brian. But cool nevertheless.

Gaz

I do not know if the kite was effective. I believe most bomber crews radioed in advance they were ditching, before it happened, and prayed for air-sea rescue. I think if you had to rely on this radio you were in deep sh, er water.

GIBSON GIRL PUT IN HER PLACE

Here are two pics showing the scratch-built "Gibson Girl" radio equipment packages stored against the stbd. forward bulkhead of the waist. It was easy to make. Just geometric shapes from plastic stock. You can also see the full size oxygen tank I added to the ball turret framework. I saw one large one so installed and opted for it. I added some hose and wire to busy it up.

The object here is not strict accuracy but enough to fool the eye, because visibility will be quite limited once it's closed up.





The next two things I do will be a surprise, If I can pull them off.

Brian,
Now that's impressive! I'm really getting curious to see just how much one can actually see once the fuselage is closed up. I guess that will have to wait until the 2018 Mosquitocom, as your current time frame is about 18 months

Joel

Brian,
You keep coming up with surprises. For those of us who haven't done detailed study of the bird, you're providing a wealth of information.

Gaz

Brian -

Looking better than ever and one step closer to closing time !

Cheers - Richard

"YES!!! UMPH!"

Check out the link for what is probably my favorite scene from the Star Trek movies. Gotta love them "emotion chips."

The cause for my good mood is a modest addition to the forward waist position, which I actually think it adds a lot. I refer to the reinforced vertical stringers painted OD, which are evident in the below painting (titled "Time to Go," artist unfortunately unknown).



You can see the real thing at the top of the below photo plus an overhead view of my attempt to replicate it, which also shows that I added a step to the ball turret gunner's area where the walkway runs out. Other pictures I have posted of this area of the aircraft make clear that, as in the painting, this part was not installed as just aluminum but had an OD type of paint.



Here is a better view of the area:



These strengthened vertical pieces were glued on with white glue, and they are remarkably strong once the glue dries.

Here is another shot.



And here is a view of the port side:



Note the wire added along the floor. This parallels another piece of wire on the starboard side.

I've done better with the waist compartment than I expected to. At this point, I believe that the only things that are really left are a scratch built APU unit to fit on the stand shown at the rear of the above photo, installing the chemical toilet against the rear bulkhead separating the waist compartment from the tail compartment, and adding a few additional items such as fire extinguishers and perhaps a larger portable oxygen bottle, like those up front. The waist guns will wait till a much later stage of assembly.

Is this worth all the effort because you can't "see" inside? Well, I'm somewhat diffident about entering this thing in the contest if I ever finish it – I'm not into contests, really – but I have noticed the judges at contests really do carry around those little pen lights that are kind of like miniature spotlights. In this case when the fuselage is sealed up they will be able to point those things forward through the waist windows and see most of the stuff in the darkness. Plus, I'LL know that it is there and that I gave this my best effort.

I am really looking forward to getting the waist done and then moving into the tail compartment. After that are a few cleanup items up forward, some general cleanup, and it will be time to glue this puppy together!

Looking good Brian. If you want to save yourself some hassle, the "apu" and the chemical toilet were removed from combat birds.

Brian,
The waist gunner compartment is really coming together at an extremely high level of detailing. Then on to the tail area, and finally, the gluing up of the two fuselage halves. I've been waiting for years for that momentous event.

Back in the mid 70's during my IPMS contest days, I was a judge at every convention I attended, and I did indeed carry a pen flashlight. We used them to look into open cockpits, wheel wells, areas in shadows, but mostly for general illumination as the lighting was never that good in those convention halls, and leaning over a model we managed to block a lot of the over head light.

Generally speaking, we had way to many models to judge in the opening rounds to spend more time then necessary to check for basic building and finishing errors. Only in the last round or two did detailing of any kind come into play.

Joel

Many thanks for this information Karl! I do see that you are correct about removal of the toilets from combat aircraft:

B-17 with a toilet? Thanks for the laugh. The nearest thing to a toilet was the old relief tube that would freeze up at altitude with predictable and often embarrassing results. Sam Halpert

I never saw a 17 with a chemical toilet but in the 322nd there was a spare radio operator that I flew with several times that had to have a bowel movement as soon as we got into the air. He used a steel helmet and would set it on the fins of a bomb. Of course it stayed there till bombs away, along with the odor. When it got into the oxygen system it seemed to be worse. I used to say if some German was to find the helmet with it's contents the would think they had blown some American's brains out. Hank Hall

There were toilets in the early B-17 models E and F. When the ground crew obtained an aircraft they were told to remove the toilets at once. There also was a Thermos jug and we were also told to remove them. they really came in handy for a beer run to Duffy's Tavern. I never did find out what was done with the toilets they removed. They may have found their way into the portable johns they had at that time. Jack Gaffney

http://www.91stbombgroup.com/91history.html

It also makes sense that APU's were removed from combat aircraft. The ground crews had plenty of "putt-putts" to provide electrical power for engine starts and since these flights were "limited" to-and-from's it makes sense that there wouldn't be a need for them during missions.

I was not looking forward at all to scratch building an APU unit so will probably leave that stand bare. There's a chance I may put an ammo box on top of the stand with some kind of thread "tie-down." Otherwise I will now only have one larger oxygen bottle and one chemical fire extinguisher to install.

Then it will be on to the tail compartment! Thanks again for easing the road.

Brian

Brian,
Great work! You know, there is a 1/32 scale B-17G out there. I can only imagine what you could do for that!

Gaz

Gaz:

Thanks to you and Joel for your kind comments (as always!). I am pretty much a dedicated 1/48 modeler, though I do have some 1/32 kits in my stash that were purchased ages ago. I have always felt that 1/48 represents the perfect compromise between size and detail. If you consider this build, for example, you can get away with a lot of stuff that is really generic, because it is small enough that you don't focus on the details. The "fool the eye" visual impression gets the job done.

For this reason I think super detailing a 1/32 would be an order of magnitude more difficult because there is so much more to see.

There is more than talk that HK models is going to release a 1/32 B-17 F and E line of models. https://www.facebook.com/hkmmodels/

Now that would tempt me, even as it frustrates the hell out of me that this wasn't done in 1/48 years ago. I'll have to wait and see whether I will spring for that. I am tempted, even though it breaks my 1/48th only rule. But to tell you the truth, if I did it, I probably wouldn't do much more than OOB with Edward brass and a few other accessories. I certainly wouldn't want to do all the insane scratch building that I've done here.

Purchase of that kind of kit is also going to depend on whether they get the details right. It is so freaking easy to backdate a G to an F and get everything wrong, as some of my experiences here with Karl's suggested corrections show. And there are challenges in doing a correct F model, because of MANY variations in the nose, such as side window configurations based on manufacturer, etc. One size doesn't fit all.

I am sooooooooo looking forward to finishing with the waist and getting the tail section done, and then getting this damn fuselage together! For a sense of completeness, I think that I will also glue the tail together before moving to the wings.

Stay tuned.

what/how did you make the oxygen bottles. doing the visibleB-17 now.

The True Details B-17 interior sets have them, and are what I used. Check Squadron.com or any online retailer.

There is also a better set recently offered by Resin2Detail http://resin2detail.com/product/ac48030 He has other nice B-17 goodies as well.

Brian,
And thank you for the shameful plug.

I've followed your epic journey from day one, and will continue to follow it till it's done and ready for inspection. What you've attempted to accomplish, and your willingness to tear out, and redo to achieve the level of detail and excellence that you've set for this build, clearly shows in updates.

Very few modelers I've known over the years would even attempt such an undertaking, and even less would have stayed the course. My Mossie is now entering it's 5 month, and I'm already itching to move on to a new build. Your ability to stay focused and continued resolve is honestly, amazing.

Joel

Wow... just wow...
Its been a pleasure and a great learning experience working my way through this thread of your build...
Amazing effort and a skill set to aspire to.
look forward to seeing this completed
coops

Thank you so much. Me too on getting it done. So far as the skill set is concerned, I'm a much better modeler now than I was when I started this 3 yrs ago. I really have learned that only if you stretch yourself do you improve!

All the best.

Brian

Amen to that Brian...
I'm still following closely although I realise thst I've not left a message in a while. I'm finding it fascinating to learn about what all the details you are adding actually are. It gives meaning to every part.

Joel, shameless plug well deserved.

I must say that these Russian [or Wikileaks] hackers are really beginning to annoy the hell out of me. Have you guys noticed how hard it is to log on to many sites, or to switch pages within them? I just lost everything in a reply to Joel's quote above because the server here was temporarily unavailable when I tried to make the post. Here's a less wordy reconstruction.

Joel, one book you can blame for this effort is below. I read it as a Air Force kid in Louisiana in the early sixties and never got over it. It's still a pretty good read, as a work of fiction.



After looking at the drawings, there are two things left I'm going to include in the waist compartment.

They are a first-aid canister against the forward port bulkhead, see highlighting below



And a brass colored chemical fire extinguisher on the starboard side behind the main entry door.



After that it's on to the tail compartment. End in sight!

WHAT A COMPLETE WAIST!

Okay, the waist compartment is finally finished. Here are two views of the final touches.



First, on the starboard side, note the green first-aid canister on the forward bulkhead port side just by the open door. An arrow shows the real thing on the bulkhead. I was going for basic shape here and this got the job done so far as I was concerned. There is a similar green cylinder at the rear of the pilots compartment near the door to the bomb-bay. I threw on a decal because the original had one.

Second, if you look closely, you will see that I changed the paint on the parachutes. There were patches of white earlier and I decided that they should be covered by a dark olive drab because the "look" I'm really going for is like slightly oblong chest packs and those are essentially a uniform drab color. The change in paint makes these close enough.

Next you'll see a double arrow pointing to a box in the top center of the picture and a black box and red handle that's "my version of it" on the door to the model. If you look closely you'll see a couple of wires running above and below the black box. I'll explain why I added this minuscule detail at the end of the post.

Finally, there is a chemical fire extinguisher with a couple of decals added. It's just a styrene cylinder cut and painted brass with a small T-bar added to the top for the handle. In the full version of the picture that forms the background to this post there is one in that location so I felt obliged to add it.

Moving to the port fuselage side now.



The principal things added here are the red fire extinguisher forward, repainting of the parachute to eliminate the white areas, a metal box of some kind above the two ammo boxes closest to the window, and the final ammo box placed on top of the stand for where the APU would have been if this wasn't a combat aircraft.

Test fittings of the two fuselage halves show that this will fit together reasonably well. Let's just say that I'm happy that it's almost over with, at least in this section of the model, and the darkness of the interior will hide some of the inevitable "worn look" sloppiness. I would prefer that the space were cleaner, but I am making a virtue of necessity so far as the "dirtied up and well-worn" space goes. Frankly, doing an absolutely clean build here would be pretty damn difficult. Again, I'm going to rely on fool the eye and the obvious fact that you have to really go looking with a penlight to see the stuff that's in here.

By that standard it's acceptable, at least to me, and no, I am not fishing for compliments. This is simply my own assessment of my work.

Okay, I want to close by commenting on why I added that emergency crew door opening device. I learned of the existence of this while writing Half a Wing.

I was interested in writing the story of the John Hendry crew. After surviving both Schweinfurt missions in August and October 1943, they were lost very late in their tour on what was supposed to be a milk run to Duren, Germany on October 20, 1943. A fire started in the port inner engine and spread back behind the wing to the tail and there was nothing for it but to bail out.

The crew's "leader" was it oldest member, Sgt. James Brown, the radioman. It was his last mission, and what happened to him is recounted in the following quote from the book by the tailgunner, John Doherty, who was on his 24th mission. Even the pilot, Hendry, admired Brown and acknowledged his inherent leadership qualities and help holding the crew together. So here's what Doherty said.

"About a month later I arrived at Stalag 17B prisoner of war camp. Upon my arrival there I found all the other members of the crew except Brown. I was the last one to get to the prison camp. I got there on Thanksgiving Day of 1943. Biddle and Hargrave were elated to see me, because they thought I was dead, so it was kind of a happy reunion even though it wasn't a happy time.

"I was told by the crew that Brown had been killed. Hargrave told me that he and Brown was standing at the waist door of the plane, ready to jump. Brown always had this idea that maybe the door wouldn't come off of the plane, but Hargrave said that the door was open—the hinges to the door were on this cable, and you pulled it and the two pins on the hinges would come out and the door would drop off the plane. The door was off, but Hargrave told me that as they were standing in the door the plane exploded. He was blown out and he also supposed that Brown was blown out with him, as they were both standing together at the door.

"He came to in the air and opened his chute. Whether Brown was killed in the explosion or whether when he was blown out of the plane, he didn't come to in time to open his chute, I do not know. But a piece of me has always stayed with Brown in Germany."

I don't have to offer any other explanation why I wanted to add this little subassembly, do I?

Nice little tidbit there Brian. Bet you are glad to put the waist area behind you. Just FYI, the "metal box of some kind" was the receiver for the marker beacon

Thanks!! Good to know. Hate putting stuff in without knowing what it is. Now I also know what the antenna underneath is for!

Brian,
Thanks for sharing that story of the last mission. Your involvement with the Luscious Lady and it's crew is certainly self evident in your build. For such a little box, it sure has a very large importance.

So you've finished the waist gunners compartment with those final details, and now you're moving on to the tail section. Once completed it's the end of the fuselage detailing, and finally the fuselage halves will be joined. Hopefully that will be before the Mosquitocom, so the 3 of us can kind of celebrate in person.

Joel

That's definitely do-able at this point. Yes, all that's really left is the tail, plus (no joke) I have to re-hang a curtain in the nose and also, I realize, install both cheek guns there sans barrels because there is no way both can be installed with the nose closed up. The stbd. one yes, the port one farther back, NO!

BOXED IN

I started the tail compartment. First thing to do is deal with the gaping maw that is the opening to the tail wheel.

I did not want to leave it as is, because that would allow one to look right up into where the tail joins above. It would be like looking into any other empty wheel well, only one that would go to the top of the fuselage.

I didn't want to try to replicate the actual tail wheel strut structure or the very complex internal structures around it. The kit tail wheel strut is not accurate where it joins the kit internal structures. But it would take literally weeks if not months of work to make it accurate. And the well where it receives the wheel would have been a nightmare too. At this point it just isn't worth my time given the relatively limited visibility. So I compromised by boxing in the aperture above the tail wheel opening. You can see that below.



And here is a view of the same structure from the inside, or should I say from the outside looking in?



And finally, here is an extremely rough look at the appearance with the fuselage halves held together. There is lots of work that has to go in here to clean this part of the build up, but that will have to wait until I start gluing the fuselage together.



I am now going to put down the floor, and once that is fixed I will start adding things like the ammo boxes, ammo belts, the bicycle seat, and the other things that will fill out the fuselage sides in the tail compartment.

Even though there are some minor touchups forward still to do, it's good to know that I'm working on the last compartment of the fuselage!