World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
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1/48 B-17F Build - 303rd BGs Luscious Lady
amoz02t
#192
Joined: November 25, 2009
KitMaker: 1,383 posts
AeroScale: 65 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 30, 2019 - 05:16 AM UTC
Great stuff! Please somehow collect these pages of posts into a book as I would purchase to preserve as a reference volume. Many thanks! Following closely.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 30, 2019 - 07:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Great stuff! Please somehow collect these pages of posts into a book as I would purchase to preserve as a reference volume. Many thanks! Following closely.
Glad to see you like it! As you can see, it's something of a collective effort.
A book? Hmmm.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 30, 2019 - 09:31 AM UTC
Thanks for "shedding light" on the lights, Karl. This is something else I never really knew, other than that there were lights on the A/C one had to paint various colors. The blue lights are especially prominent on the B-24 tail.
I also really appreciate your posting that picture of the tail gunner lights. It does double duty as a reminder of how the elevators should be positioned.
I also really appreciate your posting that picture of the tail gunner lights. It does double duty as a reminder of how the elevators should be positioned.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Friday, May 31, 2019 - 10:59 PM UTC
Question for you Brian: How are you going to deal with attaching the wings? With a complete bomb bay and radio compartment, obviously you won't be able to use the tabs as provided by Revell. You may have already dealt with this, I am just too lazy to look back through 48 pages 
! I am working on one of these and I am going to start another for the Mighty Eighth Campaign here. The wing situation has me scratching my head and doing some brainstorming. I am always open to suggestions!
! I am working on one of these and I am going to start another for the Mighty Eighth Campaign here. The wing situation has me scratching my head and doing some brainstorming. I am always open to suggestions!
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2019 - 01:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Question for you Brian: How are you going to deal with attaching the wings? With a complete bomb bay and radio compartment, obviously you won't be able to use the tabs as provided by Revell. You may have already dealt with this, I am just too lazy to look back through 48 pages
Karl,
Now that's a really good question. I'm sure that they've figured a plan out. If it were me, I'd trim those wing tabs to just the thickness of the body shell, then glue with good old super strong Tube glue in some sort of cradle to both hold it in proper orientation, and apply constant pressure to the joint surface.
the use of a metal spar from wing to wing, just isn't an option in this case.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2019 - 01:23 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuestion for you Brian: How are you going to deal with attaching the wings? With a complete bomb bay and radio compartment, obviously you won't be able to use the tabs as provided by Revell. You may have already dealt with this, I am just too lazy to look back through 48 pages
Karl,
Now that's a really good question. I'm sure that they've figured a plan out. If it were me, I'd trim those wing tabs to just the thickness of the body shell, then glue with good old super strong Tube glue in some sort of cradle to both hold it in proper orientation, and apply constant pressure to the joint surface.
the use of a metal spar from wing to wing, just isn't an option in this case.
Joel
There is a plan in the blog already but I will find the page and reference it. Also, HG has some other ideas.
Later, folks.
amoz02t
#192
Joined: November 25, 2009
KitMaker: 1,383 posts
AeroScale: 65 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2019 - 01:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuestion for you Brian: How are you going to deal with attaching the wings? With a complete bomb bay and radio compartment, obviously you won't be able to use the tabs as provided by Revell. You may have already dealt with this, I am just too lazy to look back through 48 pages
Karl,
Now that's a really good question. I'm sure that they've figured a plan out. If it were me, I'd trim those wing tabs to just the thickness of the body shell, then glue with good old super strong Tube glue in some sort of cradle to both hold it in proper orientation, and apply constant pressure to the joint surface.
the use of a metal spar from wing to wing, just isn't an option in this case.
Joel
There is a plan in the blog already but I will find the page and reference it. Also, HG has some other ideas.
Later, folks.
page 26 of 49 August 2015
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2019 - 11:26 AM UTC
"ATTENTION TO DETAIL"
I remember the phrase as a Navy term at NAVOCS (Naval Officer Candidate School) in Newport, Rhode Island about, oh, 49 years ago, but it's also a modeling term, no?
Here we see it in operation.
Karl recently showed us how the "clamshell" underwing flap control access panels were fastened and opened.
Here is H.G.'s scribing work on a lower wing. (The only thing I take credit for is surgically removing the turbosuperchargers from the nacelles about, oh, 5-6 years ago.)
There is some cleanup work still, but I really like the way H.G. inserted the three latch-screws in the "clamshell."
"Attention to detail."
I remember the phrase as a Navy term at NAVOCS (Naval Officer Candidate School) in Newport, Rhode Island about, oh, 49 years ago, but it's also a modeling term, no?
Here we see it in operation.
Karl recently showed us how the "clamshell" underwing flap control access panels were fastened and opened.
Here is H.G.'s scribing work on a lower wing. (The only thing I take credit for is surgically removing the turbosuperchargers from the nacelles about, oh, 5-6 years ago.)
There is some cleanup work still, but I really like the way H.G. inserted the three latch-screws in the "clamshell."
"Attention to detail."
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2019 - 12:45 AM UTC
Brian,
I'm at a loss of words to use in expressing my utter amazement at how HG scribed those access panels. I'm assuming that he somehow made a template out of plastic or metal, then drilled the 3 holes for the screws. Finally carefully scribing the recess for the screwdriver free hand?
Joel
I'm at a loss of words to use in expressing my utter amazement at how HG scribed those access panels. I'm assuming that he somehow made a template out of plastic or metal, then drilled the 3 holes for the screws. Finally carefully scribing the recess for the screwdriver free hand?
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2019 - 02:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
I'm at a loss of words to use in expressing my utter amazement at how HG scribed those access panels. I'm assuming that he somehow made a template out of plastic or metal, then drilled the 3 holes for the screws. Finally carefully scribing the recess for the screwdriver free hand?
Joel
I know. Wot can I say? I will post some pics of the tools he uses.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 - 12:42 PM UTC
VICARIOUS LIVING: REVVING UP DOZE ENGINES
I couldn't be happier at the state of work on Luscious Lady save for the fact that I'm not doing any of the physical building myself, and am functioning more as a technical advisor (with Karl's help) on H.G's superior -- dare I say it? -- artisanship. But the final model is going to be sooooo much better for my taking this route that I have no regrets. It would never have gotten finished had I not sought outside help ... and the work speaks for itself.
Here's some work in progress (WIP) on the engines (among other things).
The wheels, BTW, are the correct tread style for our subject. We checked the photos and this is one of at least three wheel tread designs used on B-17s.
Anyway, a couple of WIP shots on engine components:
It takes dedication and "a clear eye."
Ultimately, I know we'll get here in 1/48:
The F Model engine was the R-1820-97, also used in the G models.
This is a Studebaker build, currently in the NASM (National Air and Space Museum).
Here are the ones from Memphis Belle during restoration
in Dayton, Ohio, and here we see them in the completed restoration.
I still have questions whether the brass look on the ignition wires is period-accurate. My belief is that that they were a dull aluminum covered material. See "Women installing a Wright R-1820-97 Cyclone engine on a B-17 Flying Fortress at the Boeing Plant 2 in Seattle (October 1942)" below:
I couldn't be happier at the state of work on Luscious Lady save for the fact that I'm not doing any of the physical building myself, and am functioning more as a technical advisor (with Karl's help) on H.G's superior -- dare I say it? -- artisanship. But the final model is going to be sooooo much better for my taking this route that I have no regrets. It would never have gotten finished had I not sought outside help ... and the work speaks for itself.
Here's some work in progress (WIP) on the engines (among other things).
The wheels, BTW, are the correct tread style for our subject. We checked the photos and this is one of at least three wheel tread designs used on B-17s.
Anyway, a couple of WIP shots on engine components:
It takes dedication and "a clear eye."
Ultimately, I know we'll get here in 1/48:
The F Model engine was the R-1820-97, also used in the G models.
This is a Studebaker build, currently in the NASM (National Air and Space Museum).
Here are the ones from Memphis Belle during restoration
in Dayton, Ohio, and here we see them in the completed restoration.
I still have questions whether the brass look on the ignition wires is period-accurate. My belief is that that they were a dull aluminum covered material. See "Women installing a Wright R-1820-97 Cyclone engine on a B-17 Flying Fortress at the Boeing Plant 2 in Seattle (October 1942)" below:
amoz02t
#192
Joined: November 25, 2009
KitMaker: 1,383 posts
AeroScale: 65 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 - 01:01 PM UTC
I wondered if you had seen this one photo from earlier in the restoration Memphis_Belle_NMUSAF_2011-12?
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 - 01:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I wondered if you had seen this one photo from earlier in the restoration Memphis_Belle_NMUSAF_2011-12?
I didn't. Thanks.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 - 01:41 PM UTC
While this is from the manual for the 1830, it does show that the brass ignition leads are period correct:
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 - 01:49 PM UTC
It looks like both were used, here are a couple more photos I found:
And here is one of the engines on the B-17 at Duxford (at one point it was painted as "Mary Alice"; that is no longer the case) uncowled:
Of course, I am always leery of using restorations as reference.
And here is one of the engines on the B-17 at Duxford (at one point it was painted as "Mary Alice"; that is no longer the case) uncowled:
Of course, I am always leery of using restorations as reference.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 - 02:01 PM UTC
This is a wartime 1820. The leads are not silver to my eye but very dirty brass. But see what you think:
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 - 02:13 PM UTC
Dirty brass makes sense. Kind of a brass braided mesh covering for the electrical wire underneath.
Fantastic picture BTW.
Thanks!
Also, I think it's possible that F's had R-1820-65 engines, at least the early ones. That version may be called out in some of your technical data. Minutae but worth knowing. I'll also check some of my sources.
Fantastic picture BTW.
Thanks!Also, I think it's possible that F's had R-1820-65 engines, at least the early ones. That version may be called out in some of your technical data. Minutae but worth knowing. I'll also check some of my sources.
Removed by original poster on 06/05/19 - 02:47:27 (GMT).
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2019 - 02:53 PM UTC
Somehow I only just now saw the pics before your last post. Makes sense that both silver and brass sheathings were used.
I solved the -65 vs. -97 question too and will post the answer when I convert the tech manual page from pdf to jpg.
I solved the -65 vs. -97 question too and will post the answer when I convert the tech manual page from pdf to jpg.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 - 12:06 AM UTC
Brian,
The level of research you've done and are continuing to do, coupled with Karl's expertise, is beyond anything I've ever heard nor seen before. Couple that with HG's exceptional building, & detailing skills, and you're going to end up with a masterpiece.
If I were you, I'd start planning out where and how you're going to display your one of a kind B-17F. Somehow I don't think that just being in one of your display cabinets will do this time.
BTW, are you working on any builds right now?
Joel
The level of research you've done and are continuing to do, coupled with Karl's expertise, is beyond anything I've ever heard nor seen before. Couple that with HG's exceptional building, & detailing skills, and you're going to end up with a masterpiece.
If I were you, I'd start planning out where and how you're going to display your one of a kind B-17F. Somehow I don't think that just being in one of your display cabinets will do this time.
BTW, are you working on any builds right now?
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 - 12:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
BTW, are you working on any builds right now?
Joel
Sadly, no. Maybe when I complete reallocating my work files I'll have some time. I do miss it.
Brian
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 - 12:51 PM UTC
65 OR 97?
I wrote the above a day or two ago, on the burning question whether the F model was powered by the R-1820-65 or R-1820-97, or maybe both engines.
Here's the answer, from Tech Order No. 01-20EF-2, B-17F Airplane B-17F Erection and Maintenance Instructions, p. 168.
Since Luscious Lady's Serial No is 42-5081, she left the Boeing factory with R-1820-97 engines.
We should soon be seeing the first completed engine in this build.
Quoted Text
Also, I think it's possible that F's had R-1820-65 engines, at least the early ones. That version may be called out in some of your technical data. Minutae but worth knowing. I'll also check some of my sources.
I wrote the above a day or two ago, on the burning question whether the F model was powered by the R-1820-65 or R-1820-97, or maybe both engines.
Here's the answer, from Tech Order No. 01-20EF-2, B-17F Airplane B-17F Erection and Maintenance Instructions, p. 168.
Since Luscious Lady's Serial No is 42-5081, she left the Boeing factory with R-1820-97 engines.
We should soon be seeing the first completed engine in this build.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 - 01:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
If I were you, I'd start planning out where and how you're going to display your one of a kind B-17F. Somehow I don't think that just being in one of your display cabinets will do this time.
Joel
I've started to give that some thought. Maybe "the Nationals" when it's done. But if I do it I will insist that it be entered as a three-person build, with due credit given to H.G. and Karl. But I wonder if IPMS even allows that.
At the very least it will make a display-only appearance at Mosquitocon.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 - 02:22 PM UTC
Seems to be a misprint in that manual as there is no such S/N that would be a B-17. More likely it is 41-24504 which would be the first B-17F-20-BO. Just a minor detail as you say, "Luscious Lady" is a B-17F-35-BO. Do you suppose we can get them to correct the E & M? 
And by the way, great find! I have read through that manual who knows how many times but never noticed (or at least paid attention) that before!
And by the way, great find! I have read through that manual who knows how many times but never noticed (or at least paid attention) that before!
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2019 - 02:52 PM UTC
The early B-17F's were provided with small manuals with black covers. They were Familiarization Manuals, one for maintenance and one for pilots. The maintenance one refers to the Dash 65 engines as well.
Here is the cover, little hard to read:
Title page:
And the pertinent information:
Here is the cover, little hard to read:
Title page:
And the pertinent information:
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