Simply amazing. The ignition wires are the best I've ever seen. All exactly the same length depending on which cylinder head plug location, and each in the proper place. Something that I always struggled with, and never got close.
Joel
World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
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1/48 B-17F Build - 303rd BGs Luscious Lady
Joel_W
Associate Editor
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 09, 2019 - 01:03 AM UTC
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 09, 2019 - 01:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Simply amazing. The ignition wires are the best I've ever seen. All exactly the same length depending on which cylinder head plug location, and each in the proper place. Something that I always struggled with, and never got close.
Joel
Agreed.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 13, 2019 - 11:15 AM UTC
WHEELS and WHEEL-WELLS
Let's start with the wheels. To review, "Luscious Lady" had this style.
And here it is in 1/48th.
But which aftermarket brand? That's "True Details" to the left, IIRR, and a mystery brand to the right, which H.G. and I think looks better. Here's another look at it:
You'll note that this vendor features three B-17 main wheel tread patterns.
(Yes, ours is the one in the middle).
And the mystery vendor is: Def.Models, a German vendor with a pretty neat catalog! http://defmodel.com/
However, the tailwheel is from the Verlinden aftermarket set.
Moving on to the wheel-wells, this section is more of a teaser than anything else, at least for now.
But ultimately, H.G. is going to "go there" and create something like this.
Clearly, there is a lot of research before actual building begins.
Let's start with the wheels. To review, "Luscious Lady" had this style.
And here it is in 1/48th.
But which aftermarket brand? That's "True Details" to the left, IIRR, and a mystery brand to the right, which H.G. and I think looks better. Here's another look at it:
You'll note that this vendor features three B-17 main wheel tread patterns.
(Yes, ours is the one in the middle).
And the mystery vendor is: Def.Models, a German vendor with a pretty neat catalog! http://defmodel.com/
However, the tailwheel is from the Verlinden aftermarket set.
Moving on to the wheel-wells, this section is more of a teaser than anything else, at least for now.
But ultimately, H.G. is going to "go there" and create something like this.
Clearly, there is a lot of research before actual building begins.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 12:53 AM UTC
Brian,
Personally, I can't wait to see just what HG accomplishes with those wheel wells.
Joel
Personally, I can't wait to see just what HG accomplishes with those wheel wells.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 01:24 PM UTC
WING FUEL VENTS AND ATTENTION TO DETAIL
Here is some of H.G.'s work on the wing fuel tank vents -- opening them up.
Here we can see that the process starts with a drill hole on the side of the opening.
Here is how he does it.
And you get something that looks like this.
He's also considering placing some metal vent work in the apetures:
Question for Karl: What was in there? Do we know?
Here is a view of the port wing with all vents opened.
And here is an image of the vents on the stbd. wing.
Finally, you may recall that when I started this build blog lo those many years ago I called my own skill set that of an "advanced journeyman." What follows bears that out, as I would never have seen during construction the fault in one of the lower wings that H.G. now proceeds to correct.
There was a subtle depression in the port lower wing indicated by the dark line running through the middle panel. See it?
Now, with the use of a mini sander, it's gone.
I see a true eye for detail and perfection at work here. Also, an artist's ability to see things and plan in advance that others don't.
Enough said for now.
Here is some of H.G.'s work on the wing fuel tank vents -- opening them up.
Here we can see that the process starts with a drill hole on the side of the opening.
Here is how he does it.
Quoted Text
1. use a drill bit smaller (2/3 or 65%) than the height of the opening. Drill holes close to the edge of each vent side.
2. flip the part over and grind the material a few mm to make it easier to drill the rest of the holes for that vent and remove material.
3. flip it over again drill a third hole in the middle
4. then [drill] two more to make [five holes].
5. Use a micro saw to remove [the] material between the drill holes and then a # 11 blade to remove more to get close the vent's opening rectangular shape. DO NOT cut too much away for fear of over removing.
6. use micro sanders or files to smooth the irregularities. A good pair of magnifiers will help.
And you get something that looks like this.
He's also considering placing some metal vent work in the apetures:
Question for Karl: What was in there? Do we know?
Here is a view of the port wing with all vents opened.
And here is an image of the vents on the stbd. wing.
Finally, you may recall that when I started this build blog lo those many years ago I called my own skill set that of an "advanced journeyman." What follows bears that out, as I would never have seen during construction the fault in one of the lower wings that H.G. now proceeds to correct.
There was a subtle depression in the port lower wing indicated by the dark line running through the middle panel. See it?
Now, with the use of a mini sander, it's gone.
I see a true eye for detail and perfection at work here. Also, an artist's ability to see things and plan in advance that others don't.
Enough said for now.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 09:29 PM UTC
There was no screen on those vents. They were (are for that matter) wide open. They allowed air that has passed through the oil coolers and intercoolers to escape. This diagram shows the intercoolers. The oil coolers are between the engines.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 10:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
There was no screen on those vents. They were (are for that matter) wide open. They allowed air that has passed through the oil coolers and intercoolers to escape. This diagram shows the intercoolers. The oil coolers are between the engines.
Scratch calling them "fuel vents" then. This makes infinitely more sense, especially relative to the air intakes in the wing leading edges.
What accounts for the staining around the vents that we see in so many pictures and film clips?
All I can figure is that it is some kind of condensation stain when the escaping air, which is heated by contact with the recycled exhaust air in the intercooler piping, comes into contact with the colder air at the vent opening.
I just had a eureka moment! These vents are also the source of the condensation trails we see in so many films, no?
Thanks as always for your input, Karl!
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Friday, June 14, 2019 - 10:56 PM UTC
There was no staining coming out of those vents despite what you see so many modelers do to the contrary (also, the people who did the "weathering" for the Memphis Belle movie did the same thing, making some people believe that is correct. It is not.). There was only warm air coming out. So many modelers have "exhaust" stains behind those. To start with, the exhaust exits through the turbos. You know, on the BOTTOM of the wing 
... Most of the staining you see on the nacelles is from oil. For whatever reason, the crankcase is vented inside the cowling. Initially, the oil starts staining the cowl at roughly the 11 O'clock position as that is where the vent is located. As the airplane builds hours, the oil blows around inside the cowling and so you get more oil staining around the cowl. Plus radials just naturally leak oil, so more staining appears. You will occasionally see some exhaust staining on the cowls but that is generally brownish or blue tinted from overheating. You don't allow those to continue because otherwise the exhaust gases will cause serious damage. Back to the oil stains: You will see in photos from above, the oil flowing around and between the cooling air slots.
As for the contrails, they have two sources. The hot air coming from the exhaust and from the vortexes caused by the prop tips and the wingtips. The air coming out of the vents is not that warm.
Here is where the crankcase breather is located:
In this photo, you see nice new Forts waiting to be delivered to bomb groups after being ferried to England. And the oil vent has started making a mess to the left of center:
In this well known image of "Miss Donna Mae" going down over Berlin, you can see how the oil blowing back varies on each engine due to the prop wash and airflow off of the fuselage:
Here is an airplane with some hours on it and the darkest streak is still more or less lined up with the breather. No 1 has some other issues and 2 and 3 have dumped enough oil that it is staining behind the cooling slots but the slots themselves are clean:
... Most of the staining you see on the nacelles is from oil. For whatever reason, the crankcase is vented inside the cowling. Initially, the oil starts staining the cowl at roughly the 11 O'clock position as that is where the vent is located. As the airplane builds hours, the oil blows around inside the cowling and so you get more oil staining around the cowl. Plus radials just naturally leak oil, so more staining appears. You will occasionally see some exhaust staining on the cowls but that is generally brownish or blue tinted from overheating. You don't allow those to continue because otherwise the exhaust gases will cause serious damage. Back to the oil stains: You will see in photos from above, the oil flowing around and between the cooling air slots.As for the contrails, they have two sources. The hot air coming from the exhaust and from the vortexes caused by the prop tips and the wingtips. The air coming out of the vents is not that warm.
Here is where the crankcase breather is located:
In this photo, you see nice new Forts waiting to be delivered to bomb groups after being ferried to England. And the oil vent has started making a mess to the left of center:
In this well known image of "Miss Donna Mae" going down over Berlin, you can see how the oil blowing back varies on each engine due to the prop wash and airflow off of the fuselage:
Here is an airplane with some hours on it and the darkest streak is still more or less lined up with the breather. No 1 has some other issues and 2 and 3 have dumped enough oil that it is staining behind the cooling slots but the slots themselves are clean:
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 12:26 AM UTC
Thank you again, Karl. The "oil breather" at the #11 position is a remarkable detail. The engine was designed to leak! I suspect that the other sources of leaks were due to design decisions that perfect seals weren't essential to maintaining things like cylinder compression etc, but the idea is strange to me nonetheless.
As an aside, the radioman of "Luscious Lady" told me that Studebaker engines were "notorious oil throwers" compared to Wright ones. I have to take that on faith I suppose.
Your reply explains so much and will make for a much more accurate model. At some point soon we should also address staining patterns on the wing bottoms from the turbo exhaust and other sources.
Thanks again.
As an aside, the radioman of "Luscious Lady" told me that Studebaker engines were "notorious oil throwers" compared to Wright ones. I have to take that on faith I suppose.
Your reply explains so much and will make for a much more accurate model. At some point soon we should also address staining patterns on the wing bottoms from the turbo exhaust and other sources.
Thanks again.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 01:21 AM UTC
This has turned into a B17-F history lesson that is beyond anything I've ever encountered as a modeler. The wealth of knowledge that both you and Karl continually post is just mind boggling.
I know that this has been brought up before, but you do realize that the two of you have the makings of the definitive B17-F modeling book.
Joel
I know that this has been brought up before, but you do realize that the two of you have the makings of the definitive B17-F modeling book.
Joel
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
AeroScale: 254 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 02:08 AM UTC
Hi, All! 
The B-17 has always been one of my favorites! I'm actually a P-47-"NUT", especially the -47s of 56th Fighter Group! The 1/48 TAMIYA P-47s RULE!!!
I currently have two unbuilt MONOGRAM 1/48 B-17Gs (including an original kit with the Shep Paine diorama folder enclosed in the kit), and a kit-bash REVELL B-17F that is also awaiting construction. I have ALL (plus) of the aforementioned after-market "goodies" that were mentioned in this thread, which has really started "my B-17-juices" flowing...
ABSOLUTELY GREAT to see the venerable 1/48 B-17 kits getting the attention they deserve...
BEAUTIFUL WORK!!!
The B-17 has always been one of my favorites! I'm actually a P-47-"NUT", especially the -47s of 56th Fighter Group! The 1/48 TAMIYA P-47s RULE!!!
I currently have two unbuilt MONOGRAM 1/48 B-17Gs (including an original kit with the Shep Paine diorama folder enclosed in the kit), and a kit-bash REVELL B-17F that is also awaiting construction. I have ALL (plus) of the aforementioned after-market "goodies" that were mentioned in this thread, which has really started "my B-17-juices" flowing...
ABSOLUTELY GREAT to see the venerable 1/48 B-17 kits getting the attention they deserve...
BEAUTIFUL WORK!!!
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 - 09:28 AM UTC
Hi Brian, just revisiting the plug leads. This picture popped up today (supposed to be "Little Miss Mischief"). And if you look towards the bottom, closest to the viewer, the ones with the sun on them have that bronze look to them. Just an extra bit of info !
!Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 - 12:35 PM UTC
Thanks Karl, H.G. has a surprise regarding these ignition cables. An order from Germany. Will discuss the source when they come in.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 01:51 AM UTC
Leaving us hanging? Not fair!!! 
Looking forward to seeing what he came up with. I would like to add some realistic looking leads.
Looking forward to seeing what he came up with. I would like to add some realistic looking leads.Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 04:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Leaving us hanging? Not fair!!!
He knows a vendor in Germany who makes braided threads/wires that can be used for ignition wires. I forget the name but will find out again. I saw the product on a 1/32 engine and it looks fantastic. They come in multiple colors for a variety of uses but there are ones that look aluminum and also like brass. He's ordering both colors.
Johnnych01
Joined: June 29, 2019
KitMaker: 604 posts
AeroScale: 32 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 29, 2019 - 01:31 AM UTC
From a previous post (before I had to re-register when I forgot my password and login ..whoops) .. the amount of research/knowledge and amazing attention to detail is awe inspiring, again, well done Sir ( and I'm an armour man lol)
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 30, 2019 - 03:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
From a previous post (before I had to re-register when I forgot my password and login ..whoops) .. the amount of research/knowledge and amazing attention to detail is awe inspiring, again, well done Sir ( and I'm an armour man lol)
Many thanks. I think one of the reasons this blog is popular is because it is really is a collective effort rather than an individual one.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 07, 2019 - 04:04 PM UTC
MORE WING WORK
After completing an unrelated project, HG is back on the LL build. He is in the process of putting additional riveting on the wings. Check out this "before and after" comparison!
We both have questions for Karl. HG would like to know what the exhausts (or apertures) are at the base of the nacelles. See yellow arrows.
I would like to know what the vent openings (to be opened on the model) are forward and adjacent to the openings for the turbo-superchargers. See red arrows. Also, I bet they are connected to the yellow openings at the base of the nacelles somehow.
More detailed pictures coming soon, I'm sure.
After completing an unrelated project, HG is back on the LL build. He is in the process of putting additional riveting on the wings. Check out this "before and after" comparison!
We both have questions for Karl. HG would like to know what the exhausts (or apertures) are at the base of the nacelles. See yellow arrows.
I would like to know what the vent openings (to be opened on the model) are forward and adjacent to the openings for the turbo-superchargers. See red arrows. Also, I bet they are connected to the yellow openings at the base of the nacelles somehow.
More detailed pictures coming soon, I'm sure.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 07, 2019 - 09:54 PM UTC
You are correct that they are related to one another. The items with the red arrows are openings for cooling air directed at the turbos and the slots with the yellow arrows are for that air to escape.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2019 - 01:11 AM UTC
Brian,
HG's additional riveting is simply beyond what a mortal modeler should be capable of. For the life of me, I can't find a single miscue anywhere.
Joel
HG's additional riveting is simply beyond what a mortal modeler should be capable of. For the life of me, I can't find a single miscue anywhere.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, July 08, 2019 - 05:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
HG's additional riveting is simply beyond what a mortal modeler should be capable of. For the life of me, I can't find a single miscue anywhere.
Joel
Yes. HG is one of those modelers who doesn't just "take it to another level," but rather transforms a kit part into something unrecognizable from the original. His work speaks for itself.
What surprises me time and again is his extraordinary eye for extras. The screw details on access panels are just one example. I wouldn't even have thought of adding that detail on detail.
I really couldn't be happier with the way things are going. I'm proud of the interior and definitely feel it's "close enough for government work" given its limited visibility. But that work is going to be surpassed by the exterior. And you know how grateful I am to Karl for his expertise in all things dealing with B-17 evolution and design.
When this is done it will definitely be "something to see" and a real tribute to the Bob Hullar crew who flew this 17 on the two Schweinfurt missions. You can't get much more Eighth Air Force than that.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 - 01:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextBrian,
HG's additional riveting is simply beyond what a mortal modeler should be capable of. For the life of me, I can't find a single miscue anywhere.
Joel
Yes. HG is one of those modelers who doesn't just "take it to another level," but rather transforms a kit part into something unrecognizable from the original. His work speaks for itself.
What surprises me time and again is his extraordinary eye for extras. The screw details on access panels are just one example. I wouldn't even have thought of adding that detail on detail.
I really couldn't be happier with the way things are going. I'm proud of the interior and definitely feel it's "close enough for government work" given its limited visibility. But that work is going to be surpassed by the exterior. And you know how grateful I am to Karl for his expertise in all things dealing with B-17 evolution and design.
When this is done it will definitely be "something to see" and a real tribute to the Bob Hullar crew who flew this 17 on the two Schweinfurt missions. You can't get much more Eighth Air Force than that.
Brian,
I'm hoping when HG gets the LL done in a year or two, that you'll figure out a way to get it to the Mosquitocon. I'll find a way to get there for sure.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 01:16 PM UTC
OPENING THOSE TURBO COOLING VENTS
In an earlier post regarding these vents near the turbos,
Karl stated that:
So this is the look we're going after:
And here is how H.G. is tackling it.
That's getting there.
And here is work on the outer nacelles.
And here is "the big picture" with riveting accomplished on the second lower wing.
My late father used to parody Archimedes by saying Gimme a fulcrum and I'll move da Woild.
However, H.G. emphasizes that results like these are the result of multiple, fine tools.
I think the key to his success is, in part, enough workmanship experience to know what tools to procure.
You know, like a manufacturing engineer in an aircraft factory.
In an earlier post regarding these vents near the turbos,
Karl stated that:
Quoted Text
The items with the red arrows are openings for cooling air directed at the turbos and the slots with the yellow arrows are for that air to escape.
So this is the look we're going after:
And here is how H.G. is tackling it.
That's getting there.
And here is work on the outer nacelles.
And here is "the big picture" with riveting accomplished on the second lower wing.
My late father used to parody Archimedes by saying Gimme a fulcrum and I'll move da Woild.
However, H.G. emphasizes that results like these are the result of multiple, fine tools.
I think the key to his success is, in part, enough workmanship experience to know what tools to procure.
You know, like a manufacturing engineer in an aircraft factory.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 01:26 AM UTC
Brian,
I honestly look forward to your posts, but the ones that I'm really dying most of all is anything that relates to HG. I still can quite understand how he can do scribing to that level, which is absolutely 100% perfect, then do it all over again on the other wing. The guy just can't be human. There's no other realistic explanation.
I've seen scribing by aircraft modelers that are world class IPMS builders, and they freely admit that they make errors all the time, that needs to be filled with CA & Talc, then redone. But nothing I've ever seen comes close to the level that HG works at.
And thanks for that picture of his selection of tools. Some I use myself, some I know of, and some I've never seen before. Even the Air Brush needle through a pink eraser is something I've never seen, and would love to know just how he uses it and for what. I've got plenty of worn out & damaged needles that I can use for that task.
Joel
I honestly look forward to your posts, but the ones that I'm really dying most of all is anything that relates to HG. I still can quite understand how he can do scribing to that level, which is absolutely 100% perfect, then do it all over again on the other wing. The guy just can't be human. There's no other realistic explanation.
I've seen scribing by aircraft modelers that are world class IPMS builders, and they freely admit that they make errors all the time, that needs to be filled with CA & Talc, then redone. But nothing I've ever seen comes close to the level that HG works at.
And thanks for that picture of his selection of tools. Some I use myself, some I know of, and some I've never seen before. Even the Air Brush needle through a pink eraser is something I've never seen, and would love to know just how he uses it and for what. I've got plenty of worn out & damaged needles that I can use for that task.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 01:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
I honestly look forward to your posts, but the ones that I'm really dying most of all is anything that relates to HG. I still can quite understand how he can do scribing to that level, which is absolutely 100% perfect, then do it all over again on the other wing.
Joel
Careful now, you don't want to give him a swelled head! I think his "magic" is simply the result of experience and very hard concentration while doing particular tasks. Plus very strong native talent.
Estimated completion time for the whole build, I'm told, is about six months.
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