Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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A right Royal Fokker!
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Friday, May 05, 2006 - 02:35 PM UTC
Now if this works ... Here is a fullsized replica fokker D.VII and the attachments for the cabane struts to the upper wing.
BadBoyFLSTC
Joined: November 20, 2005
KitMaker: 96 posts
AeroScale: 53 posts
Posted: Friday, May 05, 2006 - 07:43 PM UTC
Ah Ha! it's Gunze Sangyo! I found this link for converting to Vallejo. http://www.hobcen.com/paints/vallejo.htm
If you are using Testers, then I'm guessing that you don't use acrylics? I was thinking of using Vallejo. Is this OK? I was also going to use an airbrush as well. At least for the big stuff. Then I'm guessing that I need to gloss coat before applying the lozenges (losengi?)
Anyway, thanks for that picture Stephen. It came out great. I was wondering, from looking at the instructions, just what the deal was with that. Thank you my friend. Jean-Luc, the frame looks great.
Nils
If you are using Testers, then I'm guessing that you don't use acrylics? I was thinking of using Vallejo. Is this OK? I was also going to use an airbrush as well. At least for the big stuff. Then I'm guessing that I need to gloss coat before applying the lozenges (losengi?)
Anyway, thanks for that picture Stephen. It came out great. I was wondering, from looking at the instructions, just what the deal was with that. Thank you my friend. Jean-Luc, the frame looks great.Nils
TedMamere
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
AeroScale: 4,347 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 06:58 PM UTC
Hi all!
Here are first pics of my D.VII build
I started with the engine and cockpit of course. I encountered no real problems other than the difficult handling of some tiny parts. Not only PE parts but also injected ones. Eduard managed to make really small pieces of plastic!
The level of detail is outstanding and I added only small control cables in the cockpit. The Engine is "out of the box", only the top part being visible at the end.
I'm not sure if the instrument panel is the right one for the variant I'm building (there are two options in the kit, one is injected the other photoetch) but I never used Eduard's pre-painted PE parts and I really wanted to try them... sorry Stephen if I'm wrong!
The two fuselage halves did go nicely together but I had to use clamps as the interior is very busy! Note on the picture below how fewt of the engine is still visible and the exhausts going through a hole in the right cowling panel. If I'm not wrong, this is a characteristic of early models.
While studying the instructions, I noticed a small error. Page 14, it is said I should use parts F5+F6+B9 for the undercarriage wing (option G, Schäfer's plane). If I do this, I will have one underpart and two upperparts to glue together!? Impossible (picture on the bottom left). The underside of Schäfer's undercarriage wing having no seams (see profile) I assume I have to use part F5+B7+B9 (picture on the bottom right). This would result in an undercarriage wing with a seam on the upperside. Is that correct Stephen?
I have also a question about the propeller... it's a simple one! Wich one should I use for my early Fokker built D.VII? Nothing is mentionned in the instruction book...
To be continued...
Jean-Luc
Here are first pics of my D.VII build
I started with the engine and cockpit of course. I encountered no real problems other than the difficult handling of some tiny parts. Not only PE parts but also injected ones. Eduard managed to make really small pieces of plastic!
The level of detail is outstanding and I added only small control cables in the cockpit. The Engine is "out of the box", only the top part being visible at the end.I'm not sure if the instrument panel is the right one for the variant I'm building (there are two options in the kit, one is injected the other photoetch) but I never used Eduard's pre-painted PE parts and I really wanted to try them... sorry Stephen if I'm wrong!
The two fuselage halves did go nicely together but I had to use clamps as the interior is very busy! Note on the picture below how fewt of the engine is still visible and the exhausts going through a hole in the right cowling panel. If I'm not wrong, this is a characteristic of early models.
While studying the instructions, I noticed a small error. Page 14, it is said I should use parts F5+F6+B9 for the undercarriage wing (option G, Schäfer's plane). If I do this, I will have one underpart and two upperparts to glue together!? Impossible (picture on the bottom left). The underside of Schäfer's undercarriage wing having no seams (see profile) I assume I have to use part F5+B7+B9 (picture on the bottom right). This would result in an undercarriage wing with a seam on the upperside. Is that correct Stephen?
I have also a question about the propeller... it's a simple one! Wich one should I use for my early Fokker built D.VII? Nothing is mentionned in the instruction book...
To be continued...
Jean-Luc
BadBoyFLSTC
Joined: November 20, 2005
KitMaker: 96 posts
AeroScale: 53 posts
Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 04:38 AM UTC
Fantastic work there Jean-Luc. You guys are really going to be helping out here I hope you know.
Nils
Nils
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 07:37 PM UTC
Greetings all;
Looking Good Jean-Luc! Now to answer your questions.
1. Concerning the kit items, the plastic instrument panel (PP A 14) it is for the Fokker & OAW types. The pre-painted etch metal (PE 14 & 15 ) is seen on the Albatros versions. The cluster of levers at right are typical of the Albatros company. I will usually paint Fokker company instrument panels black and give OAW or Albatros types a varnished wood look. Eduard has given the modeler a great set of photoetch instrument panel parts and fuel gauges there as well. I also added a hand crank spare part as a handle to magneto and flip levers (PE 25 X 4) to fuel and air controls. I also add the tachometer (PE 11) dial to the machine gun rear brace (PP C 28.) No apologies needed Jean-Luc every modeler, no matter what the sources say has the right to build his kit the way they choose.
Here is a shot of a full sized replica. Note the instruments here are modern English language versions.
Looking Good Jean-Luc! Now to answer your questions.
1. Concerning the kit items, the plastic instrument panel (PP A 14) it is for the Fokker & OAW types. The pre-painted etch metal (PE 14 & 15 ) is seen on the Albatros versions. The cluster of levers at right are typical of the Albatros company. I will usually paint Fokker company instrument panels black and give OAW or Albatros types a varnished wood look. Eduard has given the modeler a great set of photoetch instrument panel parts and fuel gauges there as well. I also added a hand crank spare part as a handle to magneto and flip levers (PE 25 X 4) to fuel and air controls. I also add the tachometer (PE 11) dial to the machine gun rear brace (PP C 28.) No apologies needed Jean-Luc every modeler, no matter what the sources say has the right to build his kit the way they choose.
Here is a shot of a full sized replica. Note the instruments here are modern English language versions.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 07:52 PM UTC
Here is a typical / original OAW frame when it was undergoing a modern rebuild.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 08:07 PM UTC
Concerning the axle wing. The Fokker wing was built in one piece. It was a problem when it came to maintenance. The Anthology 3 covers the differences in all three variants. There are no visual divisions on the surfaces for the Fokker types
“Warning” the kit instructions have some typos in reference to the axle wing. Is the axle wing (PP F 5, 6 & B 7 ) and wheel (PP F 4 X 2) assemblies. With the wing axle mid section (PP B 7) I routed out the plastic axle and replaced it with a brass rod of appropriate diameter. Next add the landing gear legs (PP C 23 - 26) with gel super glue and carefully angle to meet the wing axle (PP B 7, F 5, & 6) guide holes.
Concerning the propellers There are four propellers of two types offered by the kit. Jean-Luc, your profile will require the Axial (PP B 16 ) type, the other is Heine (PP B 17) and you are right to note that Eduard has not referenced the right application to the profile provide in the kit decals.
One problem is that the Heine propellers (PP B 17) are far too short for inline six cylinder engines and should be closer in length to the Axial (PP B 16) types provided.
Two of the four kit propellers have the cones on the bosses. These cones are the late war "Rupp" quick release items seen on some BMW engine variants only. (Usually only seen on the Heine propellers.) It is the pitch and length of a propeller that determines the engine application. The paddle profile was the company hallmark.
“Warning” the kit instructions have some typos in reference to the axle wing. Is the axle wing (PP F 5, 6 & B 7 ) and wheel (PP F 4 X 2) assemblies. With the wing axle mid section (PP B 7) I routed out the plastic axle and replaced it with a brass rod of appropriate diameter. Next add the landing gear legs (PP C 23 - 26) with gel super glue and carefully angle to meet the wing axle (PP B 7, F 5, & 6) guide holes.
Concerning the propellers There are four propellers of two types offered by the kit. Jean-Luc, your profile will require the Axial (PP B 16 ) type, the other is Heine (PP B 17) and you are right to note that Eduard has not referenced the right application to the profile provide in the kit decals.
One problem is that the Heine propellers (PP B 17) are far too short for inline six cylinder engines and should be closer in length to the Axial (PP B 16) types provided.
Two of the four kit propellers have the cones on the bosses. These cones are the late war "Rupp" quick release items seen on some BMW engine variants only. (Usually only seen on the Heine propellers.) It is the pitch and length of a propeller that determines the engine application. The paddle profile was the company hallmark.
TedMamere
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
AeroScale: 4,347 posts
Posted: Monday, May 08, 2006 - 09:32 PM UTC
Hi Stephen!
Thanks a lot for all these precise details!
So I will build the axle wing without divisions on the surface and use the Axial type propeller...
Jean-Luc
Thanks a lot for all these precise details!
So I will build the axle wing without divisions on the surface and use the Axial type propeller...
Jean-Luc
BadBoyFLSTC
Joined: November 20, 2005
KitMaker: 96 posts
AeroScale: 53 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 12:13 PM UTC
Stephen,
I have a question regarding the pictures of the engine you posted. It looks as though the bottom half of the cylinders are white. Were these in fact painted white? Thanks.
Nils
I have a question regarding the pictures of the engine you posted. It looks as though the bottom half of the cylinders are white. Were these in fact painted white? Thanks.
Nils
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 06:04 PM UTC
Greetings Nils. Yes this series of cylinder jackets were painted white at the bases. There is some indicationnthat these were colour codings. BMW supposedly used either a green or red narrow banding. It gave immediate recognition to to the fitters but their exact meaning is a subject of study for the fellow who owns the engine I posted. Mr. Dave Watts. More later on this subject.
Holdfast
President
#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 01:34 AM UTC
Sorry for not posting any pics yet, I have been building and I'm pretty happy with things. I'm glad I haven't closed up the fuselage halves yet though as I had mistakingly thought that the etched panel was the one for the OAW version I'm building (something Rowan said and I obviousley got the wrong end of the stick). A pity as I actually re-painted it for a more wooden look.
Anyway Stephen can you confirm that the fuselage is made of welded steel tubes and that these were painted black? There are a couple showing in the cockpit, I think plus bracing wires? If they are bracing wires would they be steel colour?
Was the lozenge fabric printed on both sides or was it "double skinned" in the cockpit? I ask this because, before actually seing the interior lozenge decals, I assumed (doh!) that they would represent the fuselage fabric showing a "shadow" of the "printed on one side" fabric and I painted the interior blue first to try and replicate the blue paint showing through
to find out that the decals are similar to the upper surface lozenge and the blue has no effect 
Looks good though, I'm just a bit confused.
I like the look of Jean-Luc's frames so much I feel I must do something similar to do this kit the justice it deserves. I'm going to be away over this week end so I will try and get pics up when I get back.
Mal
Anyway Stephen can you confirm that the fuselage is made of welded steel tubes and that these were painted black? There are a couple showing in the cockpit, I think plus bracing wires? If they are bracing wires would they be steel colour?
Was the lozenge fabric printed on both sides or was it "double skinned" in the cockpit? I ask this because, before actually seing the interior lozenge decals, I assumed (doh!) that they would represent the fuselage fabric showing a "shadow" of the "printed on one side" fabric and I painted the interior blue first to try and replicate the blue paint showing through
to find out that the decals are similar to the upper surface lozenge and the blue has no effect Looks good though, I'm just a bit confused.I like the look of Jean-Luc's frames so much I feel I must do something similar to do this kit the justice it deserves. I'm going to be away over this week end so I will try and get pics up when I get back.
Mal
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 08:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry for not posting any pics yet, I have been building and I'm pretty happy with things. I'm glad I haven't closed up the fuselage halves yet though as I had mistakingly thought that the etched panel was the one for the OAW version I'm building (something Rowan said and I obviousley got the wrong end of the stick). A pity as I actually re-painted it for a more wooden look.
The mistake is an easy one to make. The main differences were the flip lever clusters at the right side of the photoetch piece. There were other differences but it would take repositioning a couple of gauges.
Quoted Text
Anyway Stephen can you confirm that the fuselage is made of welded steel tubes and that these were painted black? There are a couple showing in the cockpit, I think plus bracing wires? If they are bracing wires would they be steel colour?
The black is a modern representation. For Fokker Schwerin or OAW the metal fuselage tubing and fixtures were painted grey-green or lt. grey. For Albatros There was a third additional / alternate colour noted a very dark green.
Quoted Text
Was the lozenge fabric printed on both sides or was it "double skinned" in the cockpit? I ask this because, before actually seing the interior lozenge decals, I assumed (doh!) that they would represent the fuselage fabric showing a "shadow" of the "printed on one side" fabric and I painted the interior blue first to try and replicate the blue paint showing through
The lozenge fabric was pre-printed at the factory level. The lozenge colours showed through the fabric interior as reversed pattern lighter colours. NOT double skinned. German fabric was less dense than the Allied, but is was "Calendered." That is after it was manufactured at the texile mill it was then run through hot steel rollers and this "ironed" flatter to an oval profile the cross- section of the threads. Then because the fabric was doped and varnished there was not much chance for unit level markings to bleed through.
Quoted Text
I like the look of Jean-Luc's frames so much I feel I must do something similar to do this kit the justice it deserves. I'm going to be away over this week end so I will try and get pics up when I get back.
Mal
Hopefully I'll have some images up myself.
Holdfast
President#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 11:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The lozenge fabric was pre-printed at the factory level. The lozenge colours showed through the fabric interior as reversed pattern lighter colours. NOT double skinned.
Thanks Stephen, this is what I thought, so the interior lozenge is wrong and really needs to be faded? I have a possible way of doing this but is it worth the effort?
Quoted Text
The black is a modern representation. For Fokker Schwerin or OAW the metal fuselage tubing and fixtures were painted grey-green or lt. grey. For Albatros There was a third additional / alternate colour noted a very dark green.
Thanks Again, this brings up another question, sorry
The instructions give the interplane struts as being Dark Green, what dark green is correct, RAF Dark Green, RLM 70, RLM 71, RLM 82/83 etc, ect Mal
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 01:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Stephen, this is what I thought, so the interior lozenge is wrong and really needs to be faded? I have a possible way of doing this but is it worth the effort?
No worries. Certainly, my efforts include a light airbrushed mist of Model Master sand, or radome tan over the dried lozenge decals. The lighter the interior the better you can see the fixtures in the cockpit.
Quoted Text
Thanks Again, this brings up another question, sorry
On the Fokker or OAW green I begin with Model Master dark green and add gull grey. The ratio is about 10 parts dk green to 1part gull grey. For the grey -green I go with the same colours but the ratio is 10 - 4. My concern is a direct colour rather than the scale effect for the base coat. Then I add the scale effect with the subsequent highlights and washes. See the Fokker Combo review for the results.
http://armorama.com/review/1659
Holdfast
President#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 12:24 AM UTC
Thanks Stephen.
I have started painting the correct instrument panel now
Mal
I have started painting the correct instrument panel now
Mal
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 09:09 AM UTC
Greetings Mal;
Here are my versions of two Early Fok. D.VII Schwerin types.
Here are my versions of two Early Fok. D.VII Schwerin types.
Holdfast
President#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
AeroScale: 4,913 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 11:52 AM UTC
Thanks again Stephen, very helpful
Mal
Mal
almonkey
Joined: March 23, 2003
KitMaker: 2,124 posts
AeroScale: 788 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 12:28 AM UTC
hi all! having fun? as an interested onlooker to this build i'd like to ask a question, quite simply, how were the guns fired? i can't see any trigger mechanism in the interior shots
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 05:14 AM UTC
Thanks to Mega-build Team member Jean - Luc my recent images are offered here in picture perfect harmony...ok I went a bit over the top. Here is the cockpit for the early Albatros built Fokker of Jasta 46 profile in four colour lozenge.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 05:18 AM UTC
Here are the images of the Albatros built Fokker for the Jasta 43 build in five colour lozenge. When completed I'll flip the shoulder harness straps back over the turtle deck.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 05:34 AM UTC
Hello Almonkey...The trigger "tabs" are molded into the Eduard yoke at the top of the control column. These should be finger pull / triggers and though not included as such in the Eduard kit can be found in the Tom's Modelworks aftermarket frets. What I usually add before closing up the fuselage is the simulated Bowden cables that went from the gun breeches to the triggers.
BadBoyFLSTC
Joined: November 20, 2005
KitMaker: 96 posts
AeroScale: 53 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 08:40 AM UTC
Is the Tom's set # 206 Stephen?
Nils
Nils
TedMamere
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
AeroScale: 4,347 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:13 AM UTC
Hi Stephen!
You probably talked about it earlier but I must have missed it. I noticed you didn't used the guides to glue the firewalls in place so they have an inclined position... can you tell us more about that? Sorry if this was already discussed.
Thanks in advance!
Jean-Luc
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 01:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Is the Tom's set # 206 Stephen? Nils
Hi Nils, Yes the Toms Modelworks frets for the German interior set and I think also specific Fokker kit sets have them as well. Tom use to have vacuform and resin kits that he provided brass photoetch for and I know his Fokker D.VI resin and vacuform kits had them as well.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, May 12, 2006 - 02:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Stephen!
You probably talked about it earlier but I must have missed it. I noticed you didn't used the guides to glue the firewalls in place so they have an inclined position... can you tell us more about that? Sorry if this was already discussed. Thanks in advance!
Certainly Jean-Luc, As metioned in the Aircraft Prop features and reviews on the first issues of the Eduard kit (and on the reviews at my website) Then we see the method of attachment of the engine and the typical Eduard bearing shelf to the raised edges within the engine compartment. Note Eduard has provided for a vertical installation of the Firewall (PP A 8.) This is incorrect. This should have an incline at the top toward the engine compartment with a cutout for the engine decompression bell. To do it right you will have to erase the forward most, lower locating ridges. Then line the rear face of the firewall up on the outside of the forward most, upper locating ridges. On the mid-production OAW fuselage (PP D 1 & 2) with the cup shaped louvres its not too noticeable. Out of the box the pilot's right side upper engine cowling has scallops for the cylinders and closes up that area tight. On the Late style OAW version (PP D 3 & 4)out of the box the cowling opening for the engine cylinders is larger and easier to see the firewall is too far back. The other fuselages have similar concerns due to the size cowling cut out for the cylinders.
The red line in the lower image denotes the inclination of the firewwall on the original aircraft. Artwork by Mark Milller used by his permission.
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