Hello Nico!
A. On Schwerin's Fokker D.VII first production batch, lozenge was used only on the wings. Only the earliest Schwerin D.VII types upto "about 376/18" had the Fokker streaked green fuselage similar to the Fokker Dr.I camouflage. After 376/18 Fokker Schwerin began introducing lozenge entirerly. It began with only a few airframes as they had to keep up contract deliveries.
Fok.VII 227-229/18 prototypes, V.11 and two V.18 brought up to Fok.D.VII production standards.
Fok.D.VII 230 to 526/18.
Fok.D.VII 4250 to 4449/18. Some D.VIIF with BMW IIIa engines.
Fok.D.VII 5050 to 5149/18. Some D.VIIF machines.
Fok.D.VII 7604 to 7805/18. some Fok.D.VIIF machines.
Fok.D.VII10347 to 10300/18. 37 made, delivered after 11/11/18.
B. Johannistahl or Schneidemuhl had lozenge overall on the wings and fuselage components.
Fok.D.VII(Alb) 527 to 926/18. (Alb.) Albatros built.
Fok.D.VII(OAW) 2000 to 2199/18. Ost Albatros Werke Built.
Fok.D.VII(OAW) 4000 to 4199/18.
Fok.D.VII(OAW)4450 to 4649/18.
Fok.D.VII(Alb) 5200 to 5599/18.
Fok.D.VII(OAW) 6300 to 6649/18.
Fok.D.VII(Alb) 6650 to 6899/18.
Fok.D.VII(OAW) 8300 to 8649/18. Delivered after the war
Fok.D.VII(Alb) 10050 to 10100/18. ?
C. Post war, lozenge was overpainted or replaced entirely on existing airframes.
See>>>Royal Fokker build
Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Lozenge Camouflage 101
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 04:12 PM UTC
trahe
Joined: April 03, 2006
KitMaker: 1,158 posts
AeroScale: 73 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 05:26 PM UTC
Stephen,
Outstanding tutorial. I never knew all that much about the lozenge pattern. Thank you so much for taking the time to educate us!
Outstanding tutorial. I never knew all that much about the lozenge pattern. Thank you so much for taking the time to educate us!
Dwaynewilly
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
AeroScale: 344 posts
Posted: Friday, January 26, 2007 - 06:32 AM UTC
Gentlemen,
I am in the middle of assembling the material to build several Albatros V aircraft of Jasta 5 using the decals of a limited edition kit for the individual markings and fleshing out the remaining machines with weekend kits which have limited markings. I will need to find another source of lozenge decals, which from my search is becoming difficult to do. From reading this string and checking other sites it is becoming evident that there are accuracy issues with what seems to be available and what appears to be accurate is out of production. What to do? I may have found a possible solution that may be actually available, although I'm not in any way sure of that, in four and five color lozenge from Techmod. What is the verdict on these and are there alternatives that I have not yet discovered? Also, I have concluded from this string that while five color lozenge was introduced first followed by four color when was there a changeover and how much overlapping occured? How appropriate is it to portray machines kitted out with both in the same line up? Thanks in advance for any help you gentleman may be able to offer in this matter.
Dwaynewilly
I am in the middle of assembling the material to build several Albatros V aircraft of Jasta 5 using the decals of a limited edition kit for the individual markings and fleshing out the remaining machines with weekend kits which have limited markings. I will need to find another source of lozenge decals, which from my search is becoming difficult to do. From reading this string and checking other sites it is becoming evident that there are accuracy issues with what seems to be available and what appears to be accurate is out of production. What to do? I may have found a possible solution that may be actually available, although I'm not in any way sure of that, in four and five color lozenge from Techmod. What is the verdict on these and are there alternatives that I have not yet discovered? Also, I have concluded from this string that while five color lozenge was introduced first followed by four color when was there a changeover and how much overlapping occured? How appropriate is it to portray machines kitted out with both in the same line up? Thanks in advance for any help you gentleman may be able to offer in this matter.
Dwaynewilly
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, January 26, 2007 - 02:44 PM UTC
Quoted Text
"Gentlemen,
I am in the middle of assembling the material to build several Albatros D. V aircraft of Jasta 5 using the decals of a limited edition kit for the individual markings and fleshing out the remaining machines with weekend kits which have limited markings. I will need to find another source of lozenge decals, which from my search is becoming difficult to do. From reading this string and checking other sites it is becoming evident that there are accuracy issues with what seems to be available and what appears to be accurate is out of production. What to do?..."
I would stick to the Eagle Strike sets for the Albatros D.V types. Even if their not immediately available they will print more. If your thinking about 1/72 I have some on my website for sale. Also you might try the Copper State Models sets. Their colour is ok but they need to be cut into strips for the Alb. D.V types and used chord wise. Some people like Pegasus / Blue Max lozenge.
Quoted Text
"... I may have found a possible solution that may be actually available, although I'm not in any way sure of that, in four and five color lozenge from Techmod. What is the verdict on these and are there alternatives that I have not yet discovered? ..."
(Since you will need five colour lozenge for the Albatros D.V) I would not use the Techmod sets myself. If you do then there will be a definate need for an over spray to tone them down. See the lozenge texuring thread here in early aviation to understand what overspraying does.
Quoted Text
Also, I have concluded from this string that while five color lozenge was introduced first followed by four color when was there a changeover and how much overlapping occured? How appropriate is it to portray machines kitted out with both in the same line up? Thanks in advance for any help you gentleman may be able to offer in this matter.
Dwaynewilly
The Albatros D.V and D. Va were never covered in 4 colour lozenge camouflaged fabric. Their productions ended before the four colour was introduced. The four colour was initially used on the Fokker D.VI, D.VII and E.V type in the spring of 1918.
ALSO!!!! There were Alb. D.V and D.Va types that had the two toned uppersurface sprayed on camouflage. check your references for the specific machines.
Hope this helps.
Dwaynewilly
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
AeroScale: 344 posts
Posted: Friday, January 26, 2007 - 09:14 PM UTC
Stephen,
Thanks for the reply. I'm just starting out with WWI aircraft and I'm diffinately playing catch-up. I really appreciate the advise. My reference is minimal so if my projects are less than accurate then you'll know why. I really like the aspect of the smaller number of parts in these kits since I'm used to 300 plus for armor.
Even when you throw in rigging ts about a 1/4 of the time it takes to build a tank. I'm having a blast just building again for a change and the AMS has not creeped in yet. I built and rigged an old Testors SPAD XIII which I then used decals from a more contemporary kit to finish it off with. This weekend I'll be taking some pics and posting them to my login page. If you get a chance, take a look and let me me know where to start improving. Keep in mind that this is my first WWI kit since I was about ten years old.
Thanks for the input, Dwayne
Thanks for the reply. I'm just starting out with WWI aircraft and I'm diffinately playing catch-up. I really appreciate the advise. My reference is minimal so if my projects are less than accurate then you'll know why. I really like the aspect of the smaller number of parts in these kits since I'm used to 300 plus for armor.
Even when you throw in rigging ts about a 1/4 of the time it takes to build a tank. I'm having a blast just building again for a change and the AMS has not creeped in yet. I built and rigged an old Testors SPAD XIII which I then used decals from a more contemporary kit to finish it off with. This weekend I'll be taking some pics and posting them to my login page. If you get a chance, take a look and let me me know where to start improving. Keep in mind that this is my first WWI kit since I was about ten years old.
Thanks for the input, Dwayne
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 01:54 PM UTC
Greetings all this is a recent PM I rec'd.
To answer directly when you pull these water slide decals from their ziplock bag trim them first then lay them out in sequence and then dip them in warm water. Although the pattern on the 5 colour is slightly different from the 4 colour yes check out the posts here for the lay outs. Chordwise is the standard for single seat fighters.
Quoted Text
Stephen,
Thanks for all your input and patience. My next question deals with applying sheet lozenge decals from Eagle Strike and the like and in particular, the methods used to lay them down and trim them. I was able to secure a set of 5 color ones in 1/48 scale on ebay. I see from reading the thread that they should be placed cordwise and that the direction of the "v" in the pattern should alternate 180 degrees as they are layed down but how you gentlemen set them and trim them and in what order are these actions performed? This is of vital interest to me and I'm sure other folks as well. I looked at all the past thread topics and there didn't appear to be one specifically about this. If one already exists would you please point me in the right direction?
Thanks..."
To answer directly when you pull these water slide decals from their ziplock bag trim them first then lay them out in sequence and then dip them in warm water. Although the pattern on the 5 colour is slightly different from the 4 colour yes check out the posts here for the lay outs. Chordwise is the standard for single seat fighters.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 04:09 PM UTC
Well folks I found the earliest reference to the term "Lozenge". The 1918 narrative on Fokker D.VII 368/18 in its description by British inspectors describes the German multi colour camouflage to be "lozenge" in shape. Elongated poly and hexagons? Greg VanWynGarden published this in his profiles of Anthology 1 concerning plate 17 & 17a. So this is where the term came from. I'll go back through the thread and add this for future readers.
To answer a PM about some of my terms used for this thread. Yes I could have used terms like "weft", "warp", filling" and etc. These are terms used by textile mills and though the fabric material originated on textile mill rollers we are talking about decals here hence my need to keep the descriptions thread specific.
To answer a PM about some of my terms used for this thread. Yes I could have used terms like "weft", "warp", filling" and etc. These are terms used by textile mills and though the fabric material originated on textile mill rollers we are talking about decals here hence my need to keep the descriptions thread specific.
Dwaynewilly
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
AeroScale: 344 posts
Posted: Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 07:19 PM UTC
Stephen,
Thanks again, really appreciate the help.
Dwayne
Thanks again, really appreciate the help.
Dwayne
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 03:00 PM UTC
Greetings all;
Thanks to Jan (Lucky13) Bojarp, here is a batch of late Fokker D.VII (OAW) at the AEF turn in point at Romoratin. These machines were factory fresh and had not been issued out to any frontline units before the war's end. These are in 5 colour lozenge fabric.
Thanks to Jan (Lucky13) Bojarp, here is a batch of late Fokker D.VII (OAW) at the AEF turn in point at Romoratin. These machines were factory fresh and had not been issued out to any frontline units before the war's end. These are in 5 colour lozenge fabric.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Friday, April 06, 2007 - 04:30 PM UTC
As of this writing Eagle Strike has been sold to Squadron and there is no promise as to when it will become available again. The best coloured lozenge on the market at this time in my opinion is Copper State Models. Some people swear by Pegasus / Blue Max sets. Techmod is too psychedelic. Eduard is the easiest to get , but like all lozenge decals has to be textured to look like fabric. Avia sheets are not the best choice for accuracy but can be worked with.
ErikW
Joined: August 14, 2006
KitMaker: 56 posts
AeroScale: 12 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 11:07 PM UTC
What base color do you suggest painting under the lozenge decals? Is a darker or lighter color better? Does it matter?
Thanks,
Erik
Thanks,
Erik
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2007 - 03:09 AM UTC
Greetings ErikW;
For most lozenge decals you need a semigloss suface to apply them to. The colour of his base coat is not critical as many are opaque. We are starting to learn its the texturing after application that really effects the colours. If you run into some that are translucent like the Battle Axe 1/32 1st issues then try dark green.
For most lozenge decals you need a semigloss suface to apply them to. The colour of his base coat is not critical as many are opaque. We are starting to learn its the texturing after application that really effects the colours. If you run into some that are translucent like the Battle Axe 1/32 1st issues then try dark green.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 02:05 PM UTC
I had intended to add a couple of new manufacturers to the list of, " Who is making lozenge decals?" But they are all a little backlogged now and that will have to come later. For now I hope I have answered all of your questions . If anything else comes up feel free to post it here.
To answer the last question . . . What is the best lozenge decal.
The best that has ever been out to date is Eagle Strike 4 & 5 colour. IMHO.
Class dismissed.
To answer the last question . . . What is the best lozenge decal.
The best that has ever been out to date is Eagle Strike 4 & 5 colour. IMHO.
Class dismissed.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 09:40 PM UTC
Greetings all. Just a bit of an update.
Copper State Models has a good supply of the four colour lozenge camouflage (upper and lower). No 5 colour expected. Check out their website.
I have been working with a small manufacturer on the preliminaries of getting the colours right for the 4 & 5 colour. So far this is only talk. But I have been discussing the possible pantone colour references with him.
Eduard is selling their 4 & 5 colour lozenge sheets individually.
Squadron has no word on when they will re-relelease.
Copper State Models has a good supply of the four colour lozenge camouflage (upper and lower). No 5 colour expected. Check out their website.
I have been working with a small manufacturer on the preliminaries of getting the colours right for the 4 & 5 colour. So far this is only talk. But I have been discussing the possible pantone colour references with him.
Eduard is selling their 4 & 5 colour lozenge sheets individually.
Squadron has no word on when they will re-relelease.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 04:24 PM UTC
Greetings all;
I have been helping a small manufacturer wih his production versions of the 4 & 5 colour lozenge. Here is what he recently asked me about.
I don't believe they are. In other words most lozenge samples we have came off of real aircraft and have already been distorted. Checking against Ian Huntley's drawings and those that followed there after, it seems the school of thought on pattern distortion has only been a recent subject of discussion.
When you lay down decals on a model with micro sol and set, it tends to distort them to conform to the surface much in the way that dope tightened the real articles in 1917-1918. IMHO There is no need to build it in.
I have been helping a small manufacturer wih his production versions of the 4 & 5 colour lozenge. Here is what he recently asked me about.
Quoted Text
Stephen: Are the lozenge pattern drawings by moden artists corrected for distortion? Thanks!
I don't believe they are. In other words most lozenge samples we have came off of real aircraft and have already been distorted. Checking against Ian Huntley's drawings and those that followed there after, it seems the school of thought on pattern distortion has only been a recent subject of discussion.
When you lay down decals on a model with micro sol and set, it tends to distort them to conform to the surface much in the way that dope tightened the real articles in 1917-1918. IMHO There is no need to build it in.
SuccorPhysh
Joined: June 24, 2007
KitMaker: 82 posts
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Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 05:32 PM UTC
Thanks for a wonderful thread. One question, where can I find the "texturing lozenge" thread you reference? I did a search but was unable to locate it.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 07:37 AM UTC
Here you go. Click here
Dwaynewilly
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
AeroScale: 344 posts
Posted: Friday, July 27, 2007 - 07:30 PM UTC
Stephen,
Any updates on the availability from anyone for 5 color lozenge? i can't seem to find anyplace that has them in stock, unless you count ebay.
Thanks, Dwayne
Any updates on the availability from anyone for 5 color lozenge? i can't seem to find anyplace that has them in stock, unless you count ebay.
Thanks, Dwayne
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 05:27 AM UTC
Five colour is rare at this time. Several companies have projects going. I have not seen anything in production yet. They have invested in test shots which means they are on the edge. If production costs are not prohibitive then it maybe profitable.
Here is something from a Graphic Arts Designer in Georgia USA. Typical cookie cutter stuff but very interesting.
Pfalz kit 5 colour lozenge
Here is something from a Graphic Arts Designer in Georgia USA. Typical cookie cutter stuff but very interesting.
Pfalz kit 5 colour lozenge
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 10:14 AM UTC
Just bringing this up for Ritterbach
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 07:34 AM UTC
When Squadron purchased Eagle Strike / Aeromaster one concern was evidently not fielded. The fellows who printed the Eagle Strike loz. were not in the USA. Squadron usually has Krasel industries do their decal sheets and the cost of 4-5 colour lozenge is pretty steep. Even Copper State Models has had concerns with their lozenge printed by Krasel industries.
Even though there are at least two minor companies working on this now (one in the USA "not Squadron" the other is SPADA in Europe) Squadron has at least contacted Krasel on this subject and is not planning on more than a small run sometime in the future.
Even though there are at least two minor companies working on this now (one in the USA "not Squadron" the other is SPADA in Europe) Squadron has at least contacted Krasel on this subject and is not planning on more than a small run sometime in the future.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:03 AM UTC
Here is the latest from the USA connection.
". . .I am making significant progress. I had had two sets of proofs to look at so far for the 5-color upper. The last one looked really good (to me) with fabric texture and all. I'm asking for the green to be darkened very slightly, but other than that it is ready to go.
I have had one proof on the 5-color lower so far. It looks promising, but needs tweaking of the yellow and purple. Also the texture needs to be subdued quite a bit because the colors are lighter.
I'm guessing I'll have both the finished 1/48 5-color products in hand by the end of September. As soon as I do I'll send some to you to try out.
I wanted to go through the whole process before committing too much money, so as soon as I see the final printed 5-color product I'll send the four-color version to be printed.
It currently seems like SPADA will be my closest rival — although having experimented with laser decals, I think color consistency and opacity will be problems. . ."
". . .I am making significant progress. I had had two sets of proofs to look at so far for the 5-color upper. The last one looked really good (to me) with fabric texture and all. I'm asking for the green to be darkened very slightly, but other than that it is ready to go.
I have had one proof on the 5-color lower so far. It looks promising, but needs tweaking of the yellow and purple. Also the texture needs to be subdued quite a bit because the colors are lighter.
I'm guessing I'll have both the finished 1/48 5-color products in hand by the end of September. As soon as I do I'll send some to you to try out.
I wanted to go through the whole process before committing too much money, so as soon as I see the final printed 5-color product I'll send the four-color version to be printed.
It currently seems like SPADA will be my closest rival — although having experimented with laser decals, I think color consistency and opacity will be problems. . ."
Dwaynewilly
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
AeroScale: 344 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:01 PM UTC
Fellow Fabric Fanatics,
I view the last two updates as very encouraging. The reissue of the Eagle Strike lozenge would be greeted with much enthusiasm I believe, even if it is on a limited run basis. I hope that upon the success of this they may be inclined to reissue some more of their out of print WWI catalogue.
The other development is even more anticipated by myself as it may stimulate a resurgence in marketing newer decal sheets of subjects not available previously. I believe that Eduard has really hit a new market with their more economical Weekend Editions in which folks who are not normally interested in WWI aviation are willing to give it a go because of the minimal investment required. Once hooked they will be looking beyond the single marking option available with those kits, the demand for photoetch will increase as well! Thats where I believe small companies can fill a vacuum. I for one will support any foray into this market as much as financially possible!
We may not see Halberstadts and DFW's, Caudrons, Handley Pages and Salmsons in the future but give me dozens of marking options and I can build a bunch of Camels and Fokkers and Albatros's!!!!!!! Maybe the glass is half full after all.
Dwayne
I view the last two updates as very encouraging. The reissue of the Eagle Strike lozenge would be greeted with much enthusiasm I believe, even if it is on a limited run basis. I hope that upon the success of this they may be inclined to reissue some more of their out of print WWI catalogue.
The other development is even more anticipated by myself as it may stimulate a resurgence in marketing newer decal sheets of subjects not available previously. I believe that Eduard has really hit a new market with their more economical Weekend Editions in which folks who are not normally interested in WWI aviation are willing to give it a go because of the minimal investment required. Once hooked they will be looking beyond the single marking option available with those kits, the demand for photoetch will increase as well! Thats where I believe small companies can fill a vacuum. I for one will support any foray into this market as much as financially possible!
We may not see Halberstadts and DFW's, Caudrons, Handley Pages and Salmsons in the future but give me dozens of marking options and I can build a bunch of Camels and Fokkers and Albatros's!!!!!!! Maybe the glass is half full after all.
Dwayne
Rittersbach
Joined: August 16, 2007
KitMaker: 83 posts
AeroScale: 80 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 03:13 PM UTC
Stephen,
Why are the Eagle Strike lozenge going to be limited run?
Why are the Eagle Strike lozenge going to be limited run?
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 06:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Stephen, Why are the Eagle Strike lozenge going to be limited run?
Hi Jeff all I can tell you is what I posted on the last entry here of page 4.
"When Squadron purchased Eagle Strike / Aeromaster one concern was evidently not fielded. The fellows who printed the Eagle Strike loz. were not in the USA. Squadron usually has Krasel industries do their decal sheets and the cost of 4-5 colour lozenge is pretty steep. Even Copper State Models has had concerns with their lozenge printed by Krasel industries.
Even though there are at least two minor companies working on this now (one in the USA "not Squadron" the other is SPADA in Europe) Squadron has at least contacted Krasel on this subject and is not planning on more than a small run sometime in the future."
Maybe they don't think the WWI catagory is that immediate of a need to spend a large amount of money on also Eduard has their own sets that Squadron sells too. But now we are just guessing.
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