Not to jump the gun or be a pain, but this inquiring mind wishes to know.......
Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
Lozenge Camouflage 101
old-dragon
Joined: August 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,289 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:05 AM UTC
I have a question...All this great reading on "land based" lozenge is great, but, will we of the sea going type ever see a "Naval lozenge" section to this wonderful thread? I ask because my Hansa Brandenburg W29 is ready for lozenge and I honestly haven't a clue to whether the laws of land based lozenge applies to the naval type as well? {cordwise application or span..or both/does naval type lozenge use rib tape/is there an Undernieth type of naval lozenge?} .........Could you enlighten us{me!}.
Not to jump the gun or be a pain, but this inquiring mind wishes to know.......
Not to jump the gun or be a pain, but this inquiring mind wishes to know.......
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:28 AM UTC
Hi Bob . Go over to this site ...........www.theaerodrome.com and click on forums scroll done to the reading room and you will find part 1 and 2 on the W.29 and German naval camouflge
Should be able to find you answers over there on the subject . I haven't seen any info here on the subject .
Should be able to find you answers over there on the subject . I haven't seen any info here on the subject .
old-dragon
Joined: August 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,289 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Bob . Go over to this site ...........www.theaerodrome.com and click on forums scroll done to the reading room and you will find part 1 and 2 on the W.29 and German naval camouflge
Should be able to find you answers over there on the subject . I haven't seen any info here on the subject .
Nope, already checked it...All I found was "WNW" was supposed to come out with a large scale one...who's "WNW"?{wingnuts?}..I'll keep searching!
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:52 PM UTC
You are looking in the wrong place Bob . when you go to the site on the main page on the left hand side click on forums . Now don't click on anything else just scroll down the page now and the two articles are there in the reading room . Middle of the page about half way down .
old-dragon
Joined: August 30, 2005
KitMaker: 3,289 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 03:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You are looking in the wrong place Bob . when you go to the site on the main page on the left hand side click on forums . Now don't click on anything else just scroll down the page now and the two articles are there in the reading room . Middle of the page about half way down .
Ooops...gotcha...printed it all out...mentions a D-VII in naval lozenge! Thank you!!!!!!! I'm going to map out decal sections........I'll be quiet now!.........
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:22 PM UTC
Cool , glad it work out for you Bob . 
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'll be quiet now!.........
You get quiet on us and we'll send the cops around for a health & welfare check.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 03:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm in the initial stages of my first ever bi-plane build, the 1/32nd LVG (Wingnut Wings kit). So I've many questions about bi-planes and/or WWI. So I'll start with just one for now:
1. What's the reason/rationale for this German 'Lozenge' design on many of their planes? Camouflage? Looked pretty? Did it play tricks on allied pilots eyes? What? Glenn
The short answer is it was done to render the aircraft details indestinguishable. At a distance you could not readily see whether the machine was coming at you or going away. Earth tones for the upper surfaces and sky tones for the lower surfaces. With shadows being on the underside these were rendered dark at an oblique angle. The attempt was to delay the enemy from engaging giving the German pilot a chance to survive.
CaptainA
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 09:06 AM UTC
The walls of my bedroom are an azure/sky blue color. If I set one of these lozenge colored airplanes up against it, the aircraft really does lose details and actually does blend in a bit. So, what Stephen said is correct.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 08:59 AM UTC
HHHhhhmmmm I smell a change in the wind says I. Something is brewing just beyond the horizon. . . could it be? Might it be. . .? Now whats he upto. . .? Something on a grander scale?
Kornbeef
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 1,667 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 09:24 AM UTC
Stephen...you...are...a...dreadful...tease! Of course you do know that?
If its 1/32 scale loz for pity sake tell me before before I spray the Albi DIII OAW wings in camo please and I will slip her back onto the pending pile and work on another project.
Keith
If its 1/32 scale loz for pity sake tell me before before I spray the Albi DIII OAW wings in camo please and I will slip her back onto the pending pile and work on another project.
Keith
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 05:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Stephen...you...are...a...dreadful...tease! Of course you do know that? If its 1/32 scale loz for pity sake tell me before before I spray the Albi DIII OAW wings in camo please and I will slip her back onto the pending pile and work on another project.
Keith
Now I can't say it is and I can't say it aint. But if I were you I would not get to set on spraying a camouflage scheme. Hint: what is this thread about. . .
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 08:09 AM UTC
Greetings all;
For the sake of being as informative as possible on the subject Dan San Abbott (historian extrodinaire ) has weighed in with some general manufacture applications.
". . .1. Without doing a full study, the four color fabric was used mostly by the Fokker Flugzeufwerke. LFG Roland used the four color fabric on the Roland D.VIa, as did Hannover on the Han.CL.III(a) specifically.
2. The five color printed fabric was used by A.E.G. G.IV, G.IVb and the G.V bombers. It was used by the Pfalz Flugzeug Werke on the Pfalz D.IIIa late series production.
3. The Fokker built Fok.D.VII used the five color printed fabric, medium dark pattern, as did Pfalz.D.VIII and D.XII. Both firms used printed fabric for rib tapes. Albatros used the five color fabric with salmon pink rib tapes on the Alb.D.V, D.Va and the Fok.D.VII (Alb). OAW used this medium dark pattern with blue tapes on the Alb.D.III(OAW), Alb.D.Va(OAW) and the Fok.D.VII(OAW).
4. The Fok.E.V used mostly four color fabric and no tapes on the fuselage, tailplane, fin and wheel covers. Some machines, mostly late serial numbers used five color fabric.
5. Off hand, I am not sure the Naval three color printed fabric was used on the Alb.W.4. It did not come out until 1918, if used it would be on 1918 production.
I hope this helps.
Blue skies Doug,
Dan-San"
For the sake of being as informative as possible on the subject Dan San Abbott (historian extrodinaire ) has weighed in with some general manufacture applications.
". . .1. Without doing a full study, the four color fabric was used mostly by the Fokker Flugzeufwerke. LFG Roland used the four color fabric on the Roland D.VIa, as did Hannover on the Han.CL.III(a) specifically.
2. The five color printed fabric was used by A.E.G. G.IV, G.IVb and the G.V bombers. It was used by the Pfalz Flugzeug Werke on the Pfalz D.IIIa late series production.
3. The Fokker built Fok.D.VII used the five color printed fabric, medium dark pattern, as did Pfalz.D.VIII and D.XII. Both firms used printed fabric for rib tapes. Albatros used the five color fabric with salmon pink rib tapes on the Alb.D.V, D.Va and the Fok.D.VII (Alb). OAW used this medium dark pattern with blue tapes on the Alb.D.III(OAW), Alb.D.Va(OAW) and the Fok.D.VII(OAW).
4. The Fok.E.V used mostly four color fabric and no tapes on the fuselage, tailplane, fin and wheel covers. Some machines, mostly late serial numbers used five color fabric.
5. Off hand, I am not sure the Naval three color printed fabric was used on the Alb.W.4. It did not come out until 1918, if used it would be on 1918 production.
I hope this helps.
Blue skies Doug,
Dan-San"
CaptainA
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 01:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
2. The five color printed fabric was used by A.E.G. G.IV, G.IVb and the G.V bombers.
Blue skies Doug,
Dan-San"
I thought the AEG G.IV used the hex lozenge. Could I actually use microsculpt lozenge on my G.IV?
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 05:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text2. The five color printed fabric was used by A.E.G. G.IV, G.IVb and the G.V bombers.
Blue skies Doug,
Dan-San"
I thought the AEG G.IV used the hex lozenge. Could I actually use microsculpt lozenge on my G.IV?
Check your aircraft scheme The AEG used a lot of schemes and sometimes the lozenge was overpainted in a spray scheme. Remember the lozenge fabric was printed and about 50 - 67 count thread so it was very light.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 10:09 AM UTC
Eduard's newest version of the German lozenge. the same two colours on the upper surface sets are still switched. But the pattern location on the cookie cutter pattern is slightly different than previous issues.
Review here.
If Microsculpt decals are an A then Eduard's is a B . You have to give them credit. There is only enough kit four colour lozenge supplied for one aircraft. And it will benefit from a translucent coating of dark brown or black overall. This new set has a bit of a greenish cast to them. Though cookie cutter types they are moderately different in pattern locations that Eduard's previous efforts with their 1:48 Fokker D.VII kits.
For this kit those sent to MAG from Fokker - lozenge. The examples we have in the Lafayette Foundation show that the rib tapes were used in one piece on the whole wing rib profile. In general, from the factory Fokker Schwerin used lozenge or clear doped linen strips. Note also that there are cases where whole wing components were mixed at the unit level as replacements. That is the lower wings were one component and the top wing was another. Check which profile you intend on doing.
Review here.
If Microsculpt decals are an A then Eduard's is a B . You have to give them credit. There is only enough kit four colour lozenge supplied for one aircraft. And it will benefit from a translucent coating of dark brown or black overall. This new set has a bit of a greenish cast to them. Though cookie cutter types they are moderately different in pattern locations that Eduard's previous efforts with their 1:48 Fokker D.VII kits.
For this kit those sent to MAG from Fokker - lozenge. The examples we have in the Lafayette Foundation show that the rib tapes were used in one piece on the whole wing rib profile. In general, from the factory Fokker Schwerin used lozenge or clear doped linen strips. Note also that there are cases where whole wing components were mixed at the unit level as replacements. That is the lower wings were one component and the top wing was another. Check which profile you intend on doing.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 18, 2010 - 08:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Stephen,
I have read your treatise on lozenge on kitmaker. I wonder if I could pick your brain a bit. . .
My problem is with the orientation of the pattern. If cut to be applied chordwise, as done on STROPP at NASM, the width of the bolt does not cover the width(front to back)of the wing. To help clarify, the small nearly rectangular yellow polygon should run lengthwise, parallel to the wing span. On Doug's patterns, the pattern runs 'North to South', instead of 'East to West'. Am I being clear?
Was it common to 'splice' the fabric lengthwise, to cover the wing? Wouldn't doing that interfere with the efficacy of the rib tapes?
Any light you could shed would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Modelguy
Speaking about chordwise applications, start with the lower wing roots work out to the tips. The long edges of the bolts are the factory edges. you lay them factory edge to factory edge. It is the modeler that determines the length of the individual section. You cut it to match the chord of the wing.
For the top wing work from the centerline and work out to the wing tips.
Quoted Text
". . .bolt does not cover the width(front to back)of the wing.. . ."
You are taliking about the chord width of the wing. United Factory edge to factory edge section. NOTE - seams do not join on the wing ribs.
As to the splicing no there was never a need to do so. But as a modeler you could splice patterns together if you run short of a decal. But this is only to lengthen the scrap piece to make it appears as a normal section like the others. This is why many lozenge decal manufacturers have their ends as unfinished ends. That is traveling around the individual lozenge shapes rather than a straight cut.
wibbler
Joined: March 12, 2008
KitMaker: 15 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 12:44 PM UTC
sorry to butt in folks , but lozenge patterns for homrmade decals are availiable free - check out Doug Baumanns stuff - htp://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/models/7189-your-lozenge-here-free-all-4.html 
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 05:54 PM UTC
Doug Baummann's patterns are very good. But you must print them yourself and the problem with ink jet printed decals is when they are dry they are very stiff and fracture easily without a unifying top coat. The other problem is wasting decal film to get the colours right from your printer. Unless you do these on a solid background coloured decal film (like white) your colours will be off. It can be a larger cost than anticipated.
My modeling time is at a premium and since Microsculpt has it all worked out, its a no brainer to me. Plus they go down so well.
My modeling time is at a premium and since Microsculpt has it all worked out, its a no brainer to me. Plus they go down so well.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 - 04:12 PM UTC
Now we have spent considerable time exploring the orientations, colour designations an covering methods of German 1917 -1918 multicolour printed aircraft fabric camouflage from the modeling point of view. Next "Lozenge Camouflage 201"
It is time we discuss the best method of laying down Lozenge decal strips and finishing them. This will be aimed as the first effort at the average modeler just learning to work with WWI aircraft models.
It is time we discuss the best method of laying down Lozenge decal strips and finishing them. This will be aimed as the first effort at the average modeler just learning to work with WWI aircraft models.
Wingwalker
Joined: December 23, 2009
KitMaker: 6 posts
AeroScale: 5 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 02:00 PM UTC
Dear Stephen,
I have polygon camouflage question and I'm hoping that that this is not breaking the rules.. I have recently purchased several kits in 1:32nd scale, all of which came with decals for their wings in "Lozenge" pattern . They are the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V. Wingnut LVG C.IV, and lastly, an aftermarket pair of decal sheets from our good friends at Techmod.
In terms both of color hue and intensity, none of these sheets comes close to matching another. I have read that there were seasonal changes in the camoflage colors. Thes kits are labor intensive,and after I've strung rigging and little itty bitty turnbuckles I don't want to hear that my colors are inaccurate.How much latitude ought I to allow while still trying for a reasonably accurate representation of the subject.
Is this similar to the ongoing discussion about PC-10? .I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but in terms of accuracy, is there a clear winner?
I'd like to start a Wingnut Albatross which has wings in five color. Please advise,
Thank you,
Wingwalker
I have polygon camouflage question and I'm hoping that that this is not breaking the rules.. I have recently purchased several kits in 1:32nd scale, all of which came with decals for their wings in "Lozenge" pattern . They are the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V. Wingnut LVG C.IV, and lastly, an aftermarket pair of decal sheets from our good friends at Techmod.
In terms both of color hue and intensity, none of these sheets comes close to matching another. I have read that there were seasonal changes in the camoflage colors. Thes kits are labor intensive,and after I've strung rigging and little itty bitty turnbuckles I don't want to hear that my colors are inaccurate.How much latitude ought I to allow while still trying for a reasonably accurate representation of the subject.
Is this similar to the ongoing discussion about PC-10? .I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but in terms of accuracy, is there a clear winner?
I'd like to start a Wingnut Albatross which has wings in five color. Please advise,
Thank you,
Wingwalker
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 02:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Dear Stephen,
I have polygon camouflage question and I'm hoping that that this is not breaking the rules.. I have recently purchased several kits in 1:32nd scale, all of which came with decals for their wings in "Lozenge" pattern . They are the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V. Wingnut LVG C.IV, and lastly, an aftermarket pair of decal sheets from our good friends at Techmod.
In terms both of color hue and intensity, none of these sheets comes close to matching another. I have read that there were seasonal changes in the camouflage colors. Thes kits are labor intensive,and after I've strung rigging and little itty bitty turnbuckles I don't want to hear that my colors are inaccurate.How much latitude ought I to allow while still trying for a reasonably accurate representation of the subject.
Is this similar to the ongoing discussion about PC-10? .I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but in terms of accuracy, is there a clear winner?
I'd like to start a Wingnut Albatross which has wings in five color. Please advise,
Thank you,
Wingwalker
Greetings Frank,
From the kit box, the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V should all have the 4 colour lozenge. Wingnut LVG C.IV should have the 5 colour. If you have read through this thread you will know what I think of some of these decals. Some manufacturers are shackled with modern govt. restraints with only using in country dye manufacturers. Therefor approximations to the needed colours are prominant.
Doug Baumann has a self help lozenge thread on another site mentioned here.
At this writing it is the only place where you -might- get a shot at getting 1:32 scale closer to the right colours. But - it is not the easiest method. The product will fracture and break on compound curves because it employs inks that are on the surface of the decal film.
The seasonal changes topic is simply not valid. There were contracturally limited colours that the govt established and they had to be fast. Fast meaning it won't run or fade too quickly. If memory serves there were two types of 5 colour upper "dark" and "very dark". These colours tended to remain the same through their the production runs. In one case with the four colour lower surface the stone grey did replace a light green colour. But in the study of this subject no other changes have ever been noted. It is hypothisized that the dye stocks simply became unavailable during the war blockade. The basics for chemicals used in the manufacture of colour dyes were often from other countries.
The good news is that Wingnut Wings has promise to release their line of 1:32 lozenge decal as a separate item. I expect that to follow with in the next year.
I have the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III kit and have built the Roden Fokker D.VI,
review here.
the kit build
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 02:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextDear Stephen,
I have polygon camouflage question and I'm hoping that that this is not breaking the rules.. I have recently purchased several kits in 1:32nd scale, all of which came with decals for their wings in "Lozenge" pattern . They are the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V. Wingnut LVG C.IV, and lastly, an aftermarket pair of decal sheets from our good friends at Techmod.
In terms both of color hue and intensity, none of these sheets comes close to matching another. I have read that there were seasonal changes in the camoflage colors. Thes kits are labor intensive,and after I've strung rigging and little itty bitty turnbuckles I don't want to hear that my colors are inaccurate.How much latitude ought I to allow while still trying for a reasonably accurate representation of the subject.
Is this similar to the ongoing discussion about PC-10? .I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but in terms of accuracy, is there a clear winner?
I'd like to start a Wingnut Albatross which has wings in five color. Please advise,
Thank you,
Wingwalker
Greetings Frank,
From the kit box, the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V should all have the 4 colour lozenge. Wingnut LVG C.IV should have the 5 colour. If you have read through this thread you will know what I think of some of these decals. Some manufacturers are shackled with Govt. restraints with only using in country dye manufacturers. Therefor approximations to the needed colours are prominant.
Doug Baumann has a self help lozenge thread on another site mentioned here.
Dougs Decal are the most accurate in colour out there and high reconmmended .
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
AeroScale: 11,011 posts
Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 04:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
". . .Dougs Decal are the most accurate in colour out there and high reconmmended ."
To be fair here its not Doug's basic designs that have issues. You can take the patterns easily enough. But if your printer is a sixty dollar special you will spend twice that in ink cartriges tweaking the colours to get them right. And it will not be any better than Techmod's. If memory serves Doug will accept payment for printing them for you. But the caveat is that the inked based colours will crack and fracture on compound curves. Yo will have to shoot a clear coat over the decals to hold everything in place. The main drawback there is you have to use the decal within a two hour period or the top coat will become too inflexible.
CaptnTommy
Joined: October 26, 2009
KitMaker: 424 posts
AeroScale: 389 posts
Posted: Monday, August 30, 2010 - 08:12 AM UTC
This is very interesting about the camoflage. I have two observations to make.
1. The French D.VII lozenge looks like the Eduard Lozenge. Perhaps one should consider the the actual lozenge (D.VII lozenge) is correct (for that aircraft) (this not knowing whether this is a replacement or original [though it looks original]).
2. having been in the printing industry which includes the printed fabric industry, even with "stingent" gov oversight, the print run varies. if the dyes are not agitated you will find lighter colors and darker colors in the print run. Are dyes vegtable or synthetic? The set of the fabric would be different. The fade factor would be different. At the end of the war the dyes were bad. To many variables to argue which color is better.
At the rate we are going we are running out of even second generational experts. I usually use the Smithsonian Alb. DV restoration book for color reference. When I judge I do not judge for color, hue or tint. I judge for application, (was lozenge used? or not ) does it look right. Do I like it.
If you want to judge accuracy make sure the values are in black and white,(take a black and white picture of the model and check it to the picture of the original) or from a contemporary painting.
Captn Tommy
BTW pinks fade.
1. The French D.VII lozenge looks like the Eduard Lozenge. Perhaps one should consider the the actual lozenge (D.VII lozenge) is correct (for that aircraft) (this not knowing whether this is a replacement or original [though it looks original]).
2. having been in the printing industry which includes the printed fabric industry, even with "stingent" gov oversight, the print run varies. if the dyes are not agitated you will find lighter colors and darker colors in the print run. Are dyes vegtable or synthetic? The set of the fabric would be different. The fade factor would be different. At the end of the war the dyes were bad. To many variables to argue which color is better.
At the rate we are going we are running out of even second generational experts. I usually use the Smithsonian Alb. DV restoration book for color reference. When I judge I do not judge for color, hue or tint. I judge for application, (was lozenge used? or not ) does it look right. Do I like it.
If you want to judge accuracy make sure the values are in black and white,(take a black and white picture of the model and check it to the picture of the original) or from a contemporary painting.
Captn Tommy
BTW pinks fade.
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