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World War II: Germany
Aircraft of Germany in WWII.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
Eduard 1:48 Bf 109G-6
GastonMarty
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Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 06:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



The Me-109 was aways described, and always known, as an unusually small fighter: This kit, next to any other WWII fighter, will give almost no clue as to why that is. It now matches within about six inches the wingspan of its stablemate, the FW-190A, always known as a much bigger aircraft...





Gaston a quick check of the web shows that the 109 and 190 were dimensionally very close to each other.

Wing span of the 109 was 9.91 metres, while the 190 had a span of 10m.

Lengthwise the 109 was 8.95 metres long and the 190 was 8.97 metres long.

So your assumption that the 190 was a much larger aircraft is from my reckoning not true. In fact the 190 was known as being one of the smaller radial engine aircraft.



I don't know where you got the span of the FW-190A at 10 m, but it is 10.50 m, and is quoted as such everywhere, and this matches the excellent Hasegawa kit. The Eduard kit just about halves that 60 cm span difference, just as I said...

I seem to remember the true length on both was a hair over 9 meters.

The fuselage length of both is indeed very close, but the bulk of the aircraft is something else: The G-6 is typically 6500 to 7000 lbs, the FW-190A is 8900 to 9500 lbs, a huge 40% difference.

This did not prevent however, contrary to much current "expert knowledge", to have them interact in combat in ways completely opposite to current blithe assumptions about their weights: The Fw-190A was best used in the slowest speed level turn-fighting, while the less maneuverable Me-109G was used as a high speed dive and zoom vertical fighter, at the fastest speed, the two thus complementing one another beautifully. The exact opposite is now widely assumed, which just shows the fragility of real history, even on the most basic technical level... But I disgress...

I have read that the width of the Eduard canopy's base matches the Hasegawa kit, so that should mean 14 mm: Proportionately, that is an even bigger error than the wingspan...

I don't know why drawings should be mentionned when the basic overall span dimensions have never been a problem. The length has been a debate issue, but it is irrelevant to what I said, and the Eduard kit is said to be too long anyway, in the same way the E was, plus the 10 cm too long rudder(according to Mansur Mustafin).

Gaston







Merlin
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Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 07:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Rowan,

I have scratched my head about those dark patches but found nothing. Sometimes there are some blocking devices for the movable surfaces of airplanes when they are on the ground. Could these marks come from them? I haven't found a picture which shows how they look like on the Messerschmitt and where exactely they are located though.

Jean-Luc



Cheers Jean-Luc

No - it shouldn't be the marks left by gust-locks. Their position is indicated by the stencilled outlines further out on the tail.

I've never come across matching patches like these, so I really don't know what they indicate, or colour to paint them.

All the best

Rowan
SunburntPenguin
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Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 10:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text



The fuselage length of both is indeed very close, but the bulk of the aircraft is something else: The G-6 is typically 6500 to 7000 lbs, the FW-190A is 8900 to 9500 lbs, a huge 40% difference.




As I mentioned in my original post it was a quick check of the web and I'm concede the span of the 190 is 10.51m not the 10m as quoted in my post.

Weight wise, and we are now getting very far off the track with this post, the 190 weighed in at around 7000lbs unladen and 9700lbs laden which is very different from your figures.

The 109 weighed around 5900lbs unladen and around 6900lbs laden which makes both of your figures worse than the ones you've quoted.

Either way, all this information contained about the new Eduard kit of the G-6 is making me less determined to sell my Hasegawa kits, they still look like a G-6 to me.
Robbd01
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Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 12:45 PM UTC
Wow - http://imgur.com/nNJOMBD



Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text



The Me-109 was aways described, and always known, as an unusually small fighter: This kit, next to any other WWII fighter, will give almost no clue as to why that is. It now matches within about six inches the wingspan of its stablemate, the FW-190A, always known as a much bigger aircraft...





Gaston a quick check of the web shows that the 109 and 190 were dimensionally very close to each other.

Wing span of the 109 was 9.91 metres, while the 190 had a span of 10m.

Lengthwise the 109 was 8.95 metres long and the 190 was 8.97 metres long.

So your assumption that the 190 was a much larger aircraft is from my reckoning not true. In fact the 190 was known as being one of the smaller radial engine aircraft.



I don't know where you got the span of the FW-190A at 10 m, but it is 10.50 m, and is quoted as such everywhere, and this matches the excellent Hasegawa kit. The Eduard kit just about halves that 60 cm span difference, just as I said...

I seem to remember the true length on both was a hair over 9 meters.

The fuselage length of both is indeed very close, but the bulk of the aircraft is something else: The G-6 is typically 6500 to 7000 lbs, the FW-190A is 8900 to 9500 lbs, a huge 40% difference.

This did not prevent however, contrary to much current "expert knowledge", to have them interact in combat in ways completely opposite to current blithe assumptions about their weights: The Fw-190A was best used in the slowest speed level turn-fighting, while the less maneuverable Me-109G was used as a high speed dive and zoom vertical fighter, at the fastest speed, the two thus complementing one another beautifully. The exact opposite is now widely assumed, which just shows the fragility of real history, even on the most basic technical level... But I disgress...

I have read that the width of the Eduard canopy's base matches the Hasegawa kit, so that should mean 14 mm: Proportionately, that is an even bigger error than the wingspan...

I don't know why drawings should be mentionned when the basic overall span dimensions have never been a problem. The length has been a debate issue, but it is irrelevant to what I said, and the Eduard kit is said to be too long anyway, in the same way the E was, plus the 10 cm too long rudder(according to Mansur Mustafin).

Gaston








Merlin
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Posted: Saturday, May 24, 2014 - 08:16 AM UTC
Hi again

At the risk of my modelling "Mojo", I realise I've been letting Reviews build up badly while I enjoy some quality modelling-time, so I'll have to focus there for a while. I'll post an update on my progress as soon as I can get back to the workbench but, judging by the pile of writing I need to work on, it could be a week or so...

All the best

Rowan
rochaped
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Posted: Saturday, May 24, 2014 - 11:35 AM UTC
Hi Rowan,

Don't you think that the patches may just by touch ups from light damages? It would be my best guess if I was to build that specific 109. Educated guess for colour? 74

All the luck with the reviews, may you return to this project fast

Cheers
Pedro
Merlin
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Posted: Saturday, May 24, 2014 - 06:46 PM UTC
Cheers Pedro

The patches are in the same place on both stabilisers, so I don't think they indicate damage in those precise positions (it would be such a coincidence). I'm guessing it must be down to some sort of repair/modification that effected both elevators.

As for the colour, one of the patches is darker than the surrounding RLM 74. Maybe that could just be down to using fresh paint - the fuselage is certainly very weathered.

All the best

Rowan
Removed by original poster on 05/25/14 - 08:38:32 (GMT).
stukaace
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Posted: Saturday, May 24, 2014 - 11:02 PM UTC
Back to the Eduard kit!
I’ve been following some of the other forums on line in the ‘knock the new Eduard 109’ debate as well as the builds on Aeroscale. Having pre-ordered the kit, falling prey to the manufacturers claims for the kit.
On opening the box I was extremely impressed with the contents, a Bf109G in todays standards. Then I began to see the criticisms of the kit and decided to check them out.
Deciding to standardise on references I used the Kagero 1/48 scale plans and comparison to Hasegawa’s 109s.

LET ME EMPHASISE HERE THESE REFERENCES WERE A PERSONAL CHOICE FOR MY 109 COLLECTION.

I am not a ‘rivet counter’ (spent too much time in the ‘60s & ‘70s sanding them off!!!) but do like my finished collection to look as they were produced by the original manufacturer i.e. Messerschmitt or one of their sub contractors.

Anyway to begin with I do not believe Eduard’s 109 to be overscale, yes it is too long in fuselage length and wingspan (this is where Eduards claim turned round and bit them). However compared to the Kagero plans the outlines are accurate in my opinion, wing chord and fuselage height are correct. In comparison the Hasegawa kit is shorter and slightly lacking in height. Comparing the kits together Hasegawa’s comes in a little undersize.

So I set about modifying Eduard’s 109G to my references using the Kagero plans and the HT Model Special Bf109G-6.

I cut the Eduard fuselage just behind the cockpit, laid the forward part of the fuselage on the plans, which match up really well. Then I carefully sanded the forward part of the rear fuselage, all the time comparing it to the plans. Eventually the fuselage length matched the plans and wonder of wonders all the panel lines matched the plans!!!!
Admittedly I have lost some of the rivet detail but I think under primer and paint most of the rivets will disappear anyway. A couple of plastic tabs joined the fuselage back together and a little bit of filler completed the job.



This photo shows a comparison of;-
top: Hasegawa Bf109G-14 unmodified
middle: Hasegawa Bf109G-6 modified
bottom: Eduard Bf109G-6 modified



Modified Eduard fuselage halves.

You will also note I have added plastic card to the exhaust ports to reduce them by approx.1mm as they are too wide. exhausts will also need to be reduced to fit but are usable.

As regards the nose being too bulbous ( it does look like an AS engine cowling!)some sanding down will restore it to the shape required.

At the moment I am detailing the cockpit which is fantastic straight out the box,but can always find a few extra details to add.

I will continue this post with modification of wings,control surfaces, slats,undercarriage length and rake.I also need to reduce the length of the cockpit as compared to the plans.

One last word I do wonder if Eduard have given us a kit of a restored 109G with all the restorations mistakes!!!!!

Andy
WoodshedWings
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Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 - 01:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text



At the risk of my modelling "Mojo", I realise I've been letting Reviews build up badly while I enjoy some quality modelling-time, so I'll have to focus there for a while. I'll post an update on my progress as soon as I can get back to the workbench but, judging by the pile of writing I need to work on, it could be a week or so...






You could sub some of it out and still concentrate on the modelling
Merlin
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Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 - 03:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



At the risk of my modelling "Mojo", I realise I've been letting Reviews build up badly while I enjoy some quality modelling-time, so I'll have to focus there for a while. I'll post an update on my progress as soon as I can get back to the workbench but, judging by the pile of writing I need to work on, it could be a week or so...






You could sub some of it out and still concentrate on the modelling



Hi Mike

Believe me, I do; these days I only take on a fraction of what I used to tackle in the past.

All the best

Rowan
rochaped
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Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 - 08:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The patches are in the same place on both stabilisers, so I don't think they indicate damage in those precise positions



Upps! My bad Rowan, cause I only saw that last photo which shows the only one of the stabilizers Looks like some repair but not from battle indeed.

Cheers
Pedro
Merlin
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Posted: Sunday, May 25, 2014 - 07:47 PM UTC
Hi Andy

Really interesting work on modifying the kit. You've got me tempted to do some slicing on my next one myself.

All the best

Rowan
TedMamere
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Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 - 06:10 AM UTC
Hi all,


Quoted Text

Really interesting work on modifying the kit.



Speaking about modifications, here is another fix for the Eduard kit. I have already changed the landing gear angle on my first model (see previous pages) but the work involved was too complicated in my opinion. I had no other choice though since the model was almost complete. Here is another, much simpler method, to get the landing gear in the correct position...



The idea is to create some room for the landing gear to be adjusted correctly. To achieve this I have eliminated the back of the squarish locator (red area on the picture) and then glued a piece of plastic behind it. The result is a longer rectangular opening which allows the landing gear leg to be placed back a little and then its angle to be adjusted properly...



I think this is a much simpler way to get the landing gear in the correct position and no additional parts have to be modified or cut in the process.

Jean-Luc
Merlin
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Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 - 07:43 AM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc

Nice fix. I hit the same problem you probably did when trying to adjust the fit after assembling the wing - the leg hits the front of the wheel-well (I've modified the leg to move it back a tad).

All the best

Rowan
alpha_tango
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Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 - 08:15 AM UTC
Hi gang,

as written earlier I had the same problem. Great idea will use it for my 2nd kit.

Andy: I do not think this will make your kit more accurate as you open new issues with that "fix". I just call the kit ~1/47 scale and try to build itr as good as I can.

You can try to bother Eduard but judging from the comments of Vladimir Schulz on HLJ Shizuoka video he is quite happy with the sales....

all the best

Steffen
Merlin
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Posted: Monday, May 26, 2014 - 08:59 AM UTC
Hi Steffen

As I've written before, what really frustrates me is no longer being near enough to simply take a tape measure to "Black 6" at Hendon! While the kit doesn't match the Kagero plans in all areas, I can't state personally how much I can trust the plans...

All the best

Rowan
FalkeEins
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Posted: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 02:33 AM UTC


having worked on the Kagero Bf 109 monographs, I couldn't possibly comment!

I would like to say though this is an extremely well-done thread written up in a 'sympathetic' and non-judgmental fashion by the three master modellers involved that doesn't make those of us that rushed out to buy this kit on release feel like total idiots.

It would appear that all is not lost ..the kit itself is certainly not 'unbuildable'
alpha_tango
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 04:52 AM UTC
Thanks Neil! "Master modeller" is surely not true for myself, so there is just two of them, but thanks for saying so

I am done with the kit since some time now. Just to round things off here is a pic of the finished model (more on my build log on IPMS Deutschland site):



all the best

Steffen
Merlin
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Posted: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - 06:27 AM UTC
Nice job Steffen!

I will be getting back to my build before too long. There have been a few upsets on the home front that have kept me away from both reviewing and modelling, but (touch wood) things are sorting out...

All the best

Rowan
berndm
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Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 02:59 AM UTC
Hi Steffen,your Gustav looks very nice. Your build log is also very good and helpful.
Despite the problems with this kit,i hope, i can start my 109
this weekend

Bernd

Joel_W
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AUTOMODELER
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Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 03:24 AM UTC
Steffen,
Your build really came out very nice. Paint, decals, and weathering is just perfect. I really can appreciate the effort it took to get the spinner spiral to look that good.

Joel
alpha_tango
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Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 05:01 AM UTC
Thank you Rowan, Bernd and Joel!

Despite the issues it is a nice kit! I am curious how Eduard will updated the tool to overcome (some of) the shortcomings (see Wladimir Schulz` latest Info editorial)

all the best

Steffen
berndm
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Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 06:10 AM UTC
Hmmmm, a more or less new moulding ? The kit in its current form, with the long wings, can be a good "what iff naval fighter" for the "Graf Zeppelin:-)

Bernd
Willard79
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Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2014 - 11:58 AM UTC
I think I have accidentally hidden a couple of users (two of the main contributors). Any idea how I undo that? I'm a noob to the site.
Cheers.
*edit* never mind found unhide all at bottom. Typical ask a question THEN find the solution.
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