Mal , you are right , carb air intake .
Terri
World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
Eduard 1/48 Limited Edition Spitfire Mk.IX
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
AeroScale: 6,151 posts
Posted: Saturday, April 04, 2015 - 06:07 PM UTC
Nice work so far Joel
Mal , you are right , carb air intake .
Terri
Mal , you are right , carb air intake .
Terri
Joel_W
Associate Editor
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
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Posted: Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 04:36 AM UTC
Mal & Terri,
Thank you both for the correction.
Joel
Thank you both for the correction.
Joel
surgeon01
Joined: February 20, 2005
KitMaker: 204 posts
AeroScale: 99 posts
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 - 02:25 AM UTC
Hi Joel,
nice progress on your build, after priming the beautiful shapes become visible. And there are a lot of useful informations so far. Thanks for sharing all the pics.
kind regards ro
nice progress on your build, after priming the beautiful shapes become visible. And there are a lot of useful informations so far. Thanks for sharing all the pics.
kind regards ro
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, April 06, 2015 - 02:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Joel,
nice progress on your build, after priming the beautiful shapes become visible. And there are a lot of useful informations so far. Thanks for sharing all the pics.
kind regards ro
Robert,
Thanks for stopping by and having a look. Glad you're getting something out of my posts. I know that there has been a lot of very useful feedback and corrections to my posts which are very helpful. After all, I'm a Spitfire Newbie in every sense of the word.
Joel
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 12:29 AM UTC
Well work continues at my usual slow but steady Snail's pace. After checking the primer coat, I was pretty happy with the cleaned up results, and didn't see any issues that needed my attention. So it was time to apply the color coats for the camo paint scheme.
As my usual practice, I start with the bottom of the aircraft. I air brushed on Tamiya XF-83 Medium Sea Gray 2 (RAF). I let that dry for a day, then using Tamiya tape, I masked out the hard demarcation line separating top from bottom.
Next up I air brushed a base coat of Tamiya XF-82 Ocean Gray 2 (RAF) and let dry for a day. I wanted to do a tight soft edge between the top two colors, so I decided on making my own masks. It sure looks easier then it is. I got a few done, then gave up, and finished the masking using Silly Putty Snakes. I air brushed on Tamiya XF-81 Dark Green 2 (RAF), and was pretty satisfied with the results. I do have touch ups to do, but that's for another day.
Since this is my 1st British Aircraft and specifically a Spitfire to hopefully cross the finish line, I really didn't want to cover up nearly half the camo scheme with Generic D-Day stripes. So I decided to back date the aircraft a few weeks prior to the stripes being applied. Sounded pretty easy to me. Well I googled the aircraft I was going to do, and sure enough there is a fuselage tail band that needs to be applied. Also the Squadron numbers were stenciled over it. A check of the decal sheet proved my fears that there are no such numbers on the sheet. So I went through my spare decals and found a Spitfire sheet that should work. Doing a few google searches turned up the pictures I needed. Now I was back in business.
I masked off the fuselage for the fuselage band and painted it Tamiya XF-19 Sky Gray, the same color as the spinner.
Next was the start of the yellow leading edges. My usual practice is to mask either the top or the bottom, air brush it, then wait a day or so for the yellow to dry, then mask the other side and air brush it.
While inspecting my painting, I noticed that I completely missed a putty hole sealing the windscreen. So it has to be repaired.
I'm hoping that I can mix some Tamiya XF-81 acrylic paint with Vallejo acrylic putty to avoid even having to repaint. If not then I'll repair it with the Vallejo white putty and repaint as necessary.
Joel
As my usual practice, I start with the bottom of the aircraft. I air brushed on Tamiya XF-83 Medium Sea Gray 2 (RAF). I let that dry for a day, then using Tamiya tape, I masked out the hard demarcation line separating top from bottom.
Next up I air brushed a base coat of Tamiya XF-82 Ocean Gray 2 (RAF) and let dry for a day. I wanted to do a tight soft edge between the top two colors, so I decided on making my own masks. It sure looks easier then it is. I got a few done, then gave up, and finished the masking using Silly Putty Snakes. I air brushed on Tamiya XF-81 Dark Green 2 (RAF), and was pretty satisfied with the results. I do have touch ups to do, but that's for another day.
Since this is my 1st British Aircraft and specifically a Spitfire to hopefully cross the finish line, I really didn't want to cover up nearly half the camo scheme with Generic D-Day stripes. So I decided to back date the aircraft a few weeks prior to the stripes being applied. Sounded pretty easy to me. Well I googled the aircraft I was going to do, and sure enough there is a fuselage tail band that needs to be applied. Also the Squadron numbers were stenciled over it. A check of the decal sheet proved my fears that there are no such numbers on the sheet. So I went through my spare decals and found a Spitfire sheet that should work. Doing a few google searches turned up the pictures I needed. Now I was back in business.
I masked off the fuselage for the fuselage band and painted it Tamiya XF-19 Sky Gray, the same color as the spinner.
Next was the start of the yellow leading edges. My usual practice is to mask either the top or the bottom, air brush it, then wait a day or so for the yellow to dry, then mask the other side and air brush it.
While inspecting my painting, I noticed that I completely missed a putty hole sealing the windscreen. So it has to be repaired.
I'm hoping that I can mix some Tamiya XF-81 acrylic paint with Vallejo acrylic putty to avoid even having to repaint. If not then I'll repair it with the Vallejo white putty and repaint as necessary.
Joel
magnusf
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 1,953 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 01:22 AM UTC
I am not sure that Vallejo putty and Tamiya paint mixes very well, at least not so well so that you can avoid re-painting. On the other hand, I have done many such touch-ups (we did have the discussion on the subject of professionalism, didn't we ) and it is usually rather easy to fill a blemish and re-paint locally without seeing a trace of it afterwards!
Magnus
) and it is usually rather easy to fill a blemish and re-paint locally without seeing a trace of it afterwards! Magnus
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 01:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am not sure that Vallejo putty and Tamiya paint mixes very well, at least not so well so that you can avoid re-painting. On the other hand, I have done many such touch-ups (we did have the discussion on the subject of professionalism, didn't we
Magnus,
You're 100% correct. I guess I was looking for the quick and easy way out. Will fill with a few coats of Vallejo white putty, then try dry brushing 1st. If not then I'll just do quick masking and air brush it.
Joel
Magnus
stooge
Joined: June 20, 2013
KitMaker: 210 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 05:55 AM UTC
Inspirational paint job there.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 06:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Inspirational paint job there.
I agree. It's a helluva nice job Joel, and I like your backdating research! Makes for a unique model.
Holdfast
President
#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 11:16 AM UTC
Looking good Joel, nicely done However I think that there may be a major problem here 
The camouflage pattern looks like the "B" type but the practice of having even serial numbered aircraft in the "A" scheme and odd serial numbered aircraft in the "B" scheme (a mirror image of the "A" scheme) was stopped before the MkIX (infact the MkV) entered service. Here is a photo of my 1/48 MKXVI that shows the scheme.
Just for interest there were actually 4 different schemes originally, Schemes "C" and "D" were the same as the "A" and "B" schemes but with the colours reversed
Just for clarification that is the serial number, the Squadron code consisted of 2 letters,FY in this case; the "B" is the individual aircraft
However I think that there may be a major problem here The camouflage pattern looks like the "B" type but the practice of having even serial numbered aircraft in the "A" scheme and odd serial numbered aircraft in the "B" scheme (a mirror image of the "A" scheme) was stopped before the MkIX (infact the MkV) entered service. Here is a photo of my 1/48 MKXVI that shows the scheme.
Just for interest there were actually 4 different schemes originally, Schemes "C" and "D" were the same as the "A" and "B" schemes but with the colours reversed
Quoted Text
Well I googled the aircraft I was going to do, and sure enough there is a fuselage tail band that needs to be applied. Also the Squadron numbers were stenciled over it.
Just for clarification that is the serial number, the Squadron code consisted of 2 letters,FY in this case; the "B" is the individual aircraft
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 08:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Inspirational paint job there.
Carl,
Thank you for the positive feed back.
Joel
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 08:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextInspirational paint job there.
I agree. It's a helluva nice job Joel, and I like your backdating research! Makes for a unique model.
Brian,
Thanks. But it appears as though I've got the wrong paint version. Being a neophyte to British WW11 aircraft camo paint schemes, I didn't realize that there were actually four schemes, and of course I used a incorrect one. Well, I'll have to live with it as I'm too far into the camo scheme to even think about stripping the paint and starting over.
Joel
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 08:29 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Looking good Joel, nicely done
The camouflage pattern looks like the "B" type but the practice of having even serial numbered aircraft in the "A" scheme and odd serial numbered aircraft in the "B" scheme (a mirror image of the "A" scheme) was stopped before the MkIX (infact the MkV) entered service. Here is a photo of my 1/48 MKXVI that shows the scheme.
Just for interest there were actually 4 different schemes originally, Schemes "C" and "D" were the same as the "A" and "B" schemes but with the colours reversed
Quoted TextWell I googled the aircraft I was going to do, and sure enough there is a fuselage tail band that needs to be applied. Also the Squadron numbers were stenciled over it.
Just for clarification that is the serial number, the Squadron code consisted of 2 letters,FY in this case; the "B" is the individual aircraft
Mal,
Thank you for pointing out a major error in which paint scheme variant that I should have applied. I just didn't realize that there was 4 official variations. As well as pointing out that I used the wrong verbiage for what numbers were stenciled across the fuselage band.
As I pointed out to Brian, I'm way too far into the paint scheme to even consider trying to strip it, and repaint. I'm sure that course would lead to some other disaster. So the choices are now continue as is or shelve it for now.
BTW, that's one very nice looking MKXVI Spitfire.
Joel
goodn8
Joined: October 12, 2008
KitMaker: 709 posts
AeroScale: 651 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 11:05 PM UTC
Joel, your build is great! No matter what colour on a vice versa camo-paint (who really cares?) since you do not a build for a magazin or museum. As long as you are satisfied leave like it is and count the rivets on your next Spitfire. 
So for sure: CONTINUE!!!
Thomas
So for sure: CONTINUE!!!
Thomas
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 11:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Joel, your build is great! No matter what colour on a vice versa camo-paint (who really cares?) since you do not a build for a magazin or museum. As long as you are satisfied leave like it is and count the rivets on your next Spitfire.
So for sure: CONTINUE!!!
Thomas
Thomas,
Thanks for the positive feedback.
I do understand Mal's point of view, and I honestly believe that he's trying to get me on the correct path. The British seem to have been a lot more detailed and organized in their cameo schemes then the Americans. And this being my 1st British WW11 build, I've approached the whole painting and weathering process as I do an American aircraft.
My next British build will be that much better because of Mal and his expertise. I'm sure that Edgar will be continuing to guide my efforts as well.
Right now I'm looking at either both or 1 of Tamiya's P-47-D jugs. And after them it's The Academy 1/48 scale F-4C.
Joel
goodn8
Joined: October 12, 2008
KitMaker: 709 posts
AeroScale: 651 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 12:00 AM UTC
There is no question about Mal's and Edgar's superior knowledge
and experience!! I appreciate their comments very much and learn also a lot from this.
Thank's Mal & Edgar
P-47-D and F-4C sounds promising - awaiting your next steps
Thomas
and experience!! I appreciate their comments very much and learn also a lot from this.
Thank's Mal & Edgar
P-47-D and F-4C sounds promising - awaiting your next steps
Thomas
alpha_tango
Joined: September 07, 2005
KitMaker: 5,609 posts
AeroScale: 5,231 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 12:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
As I pointed out to Brian, I'm way too far into the paint scheme to even consider trying to strip it, and repaint. I'm sure that course would lead to some other disaster. So the choices are now continue as is or shelve it for now.
Hi Joel,
as long as you do not have decals on there is always the chance to start over. I would like to encourage you to do so!
Me personally would bug this too much .. though I also understand that others have a totally different opinion and e.g. could not live with things I would just call a minor mistake
either way: great build!
all the best
Steffen
Holdfast
President#056
Joined: September 30, 2002
KitMaker: 8,581 posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 11:01 AM UTC
I wasn't in any way suggesting that you re-paint but it would be wrong of me not to mention the camo 
Remember I have gone to great lengths to produce camouflage masks for the Spitfire so it just jumped out at me. Steffen is right though that if you haven't applied the decals then you could. I do know though that if you go down that road this could well end up on the shelf of doom! Many won't see the wrong pattern, they will just see a well made Spitfire Mk IX model
Just to be clear; all 4 schemes were not adopted, only the "A" and "B" schemes were put into production.
The 2 schemes were only used for a relatively short time; think prior to and through and maybe just beyond the Battle of Britain period. I'm not sure of the official date on which this prictice was discontinued in favour of just the "A" scheme. To further complicate things the odd, even serial number idea wasn't alwys adhered to and you could find even serial numbered aircraft in the "B" scheme instead of the "A" and visa versa! I also don't know if this practice was applied to all RAF aircraft, but it certainly was to the Hurricane and the Spitfire.
Out of interest an all over mottled scheme was certainly thought about, Dark earth with a regular mottle of dark green! I'll try and find the reference
Anyway Joel none of this take anything away from a very nice build
Thanks Joel, this was actually the first model that I used my paint masks on
Remember I have gone to great lengths to produce camouflage masks for the Spitfire so it just jumped out at me. Steffen is right though that if you haven't applied the decals then you could. I do know though that if you go down that road this could well end up on the shelf of doom! Many won't see the wrong pattern, they will just see a well made Spitfire Mk IX model Just to be clear; all 4 schemes were not adopted, only the "A" and "B" schemes were put into production.
The 2 schemes were only used for a relatively short time; think prior to and through and maybe just beyond the Battle of Britain period. I'm not sure of the official date on which this prictice was discontinued in favour of just the "A" scheme. To further complicate things the odd, even serial number idea wasn't alwys adhered to and you could find even serial numbered aircraft in the "B" scheme instead of the "A" and visa versa! I also don't know if this practice was applied to all RAF aircraft, but it certainly was to the Hurricane and the Spitfire.
Out of interest an all over mottled scheme was certainly thought about, Dark earth with a regular mottle of dark green! I'll try and find the reference
Anyway Joel none of this take anything away from a very nice build
Quoted Text
BTW, that's one very nice looking MKXVI Spitfire.
Thanks Joel, this was actually the first model that I used my paint masks on
Merlin
Senior Editor#017
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
AeroScale: 12,795 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 12:06 PM UTC
Hi Joel
Lovely build.
If I were re-doing the camouflage, I probably wouldn't strip the model. As your topside colours look beautifully thinly applied, I'd be more tempted to smooth any divisions between colours and re-spray over the top. Stripping the paint off would probably go through the primer and be a real nightmare. I have done that but, as Mal says, it really risks condemning a kit to the Shelf of Doom, because it's pretty messy and soul destroying - cleaning the resulting gunge out of panel lines and nooks and crannies is a thankless task in itself.
All the best
Rowan
Lovely build.
If I were re-doing the camouflage, I probably wouldn't strip the model. As your topside colours look beautifully thinly applied, I'd be more tempted to smooth any divisions between colours and re-spray over the top. Stripping the paint off would probably go through the primer and be a real nightmare. I have done that but, as Mal says, it really risks condemning a kit to the Shelf of Doom, because it's pretty messy and soul destroying - cleaning the resulting gunge out of panel lines and nooks and crannies is a thankless task in itself.
All the best
Rowan
SaxonTheShiba
Joined: February 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,233 posts
AeroScale: 663 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 05:43 PM UTC
Joel, I agree with Rowan. If you want to fix it you don't have to strip it. The panel line detail on these high grade kits is resilient enough to withstand several fine coats of paint. I got burned by Aeromaster on a Mosquito scheme that ended up being reversed. I simply masked off the Sea Grey and redid the top surfaces. It actually ended up being a relatively trouble-free fix. This is just a speed bump for you in the project that I think you can repair easily if you choose to do so.
Best wishes,
Ian
Best wishes,
Ian
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 06:40 PM UTC
Yours truly would probably repaint it. That's very do-able IMO.
However, I agree, paint OVER what you have now. Do not strip. As Rowan points out, that is a truly soul-killing exercise. I have NEVER been happy with the result when I tried this.
Maybe spray the top with a light grey first?
Good luck.
However, I agree, paint OVER what you have now. Do not strip. As Rowan points out, that is a truly soul-killing exercise. I have NEVER been happy with the result when I tried this.
Maybe spray the top with a light grey first?
Good luck.
EdgarBrooks
Joined: June 03, 2006
KitMaker: 397 posts
AeroScale: 384 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 09:15 PM UTC
Supermarine (undoubtedly under orders) abandoned the mirror camouflage scheme 26-4-41.
Official instructions for these mythical C & D schemes is difficult to find, in fact I've never seen them mentioned.
A Supermarine drawing dated 4 Jun 1937 only talks of scheme A or B, and marks it with "G = dark green" or "E = dark earth" in the required areas.
It also says that aircraft are to be alternately marked in each scheme, not one in four, and the drawing is covered in (scale) 1'.0" squares "to give the necessary guidance in laying off colour contours."
The suspicion is that, when drawings were issued with the patterns on them, some companies (or just single painters) took the dark/shaded areas to mean darker paint, and that wasn't always the case.
As an example, in the desert scheme, Middle Stone was lighter than Dark Earth and supposed to replace the Dark Green, but, in some cases, a double swap occurred, and "darker" Dark Earth replaced Dark Green, while Middle Stone replaced Dark Earth.
As spares were supposed to be supplied only in primer, not top coats, the units just copied what was on the original, and got on with it.
Official instructions for these mythical C & D schemes is difficult to find, in fact I've never seen them mentioned.
A Supermarine drawing dated 4 Jun 1937 only talks of scheme A or B, and marks it with "G = dark green" or "E = dark earth" in the required areas.
It also says that aircraft are to be alternately marked in each scheme, not one in four, and the drawing is covered in (scale) 1'.0" squares "to give the necessary guidance in laying off colour contours."
The suspicion is that, when drawings were issued with the patterns on them, some companies (or just single painters) took the dark/shaded areas to mean darker paint, and that wasn't always the case.
As an example, in the desert scheme, Middle Stone was lighter than Dark Earth and supposed to replace the Dark Green, but, in some cases, a double swap occurred, and "darker" Dark Earth replaced Dark Green, while Middle Stone replaced Dark Earth.
As spares were supposed to be supplied only in primer, not top coats, the units just copied what was on the original, and got on with it.
Thearmorer
Joined: June 17, 2014
KitMaker: 121 posts
AeroScale: 118 posts
Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 01:45 AM UTC
Joel,
Excellent build going here, I've been following the camo-conundrum and thought I'd throw in another idea. If you're anything like me, I hate to do a major repaint once I've gotten to your stage in the build. If it isn't to the point of no-return with the markings, and that particular aircraft doesn't have deep sentimental significance, I'd opt to do another aircraft in the same squadron. If the decal library is deep enough, all you should have to do is come up with another aircraft letter and some changes in the serial no. One would think at least one other ship in that unit would have the pattern you've gone with. I've gone that route a couple of times in the past due to one screw-up or another, and besides, what's the chance that Group Captain Farnsworth will show up at your house on an inspection tour? Just a thought.
Excellent build going here, I've been following the camo-conundrum and thought I'd throw in another idea. If you're anything like me, I hate to do a major repaint once I've gotten to your stage in the build. If it isn't to the point of no-return with the markings, and that particular aircraft doesn't have deep sentimental significance, I'd opt to do another aircraft in the same squadron. If the decal library is deep enough, all you should have to do is come up with another aircraft letter and some changes in the serial no. One would think at least one other ship in that unit would have the pattern you've gone with. I've gone that route a couple of times in the past due to one screw-up or another, and besides, what's the chance that Group Captain Farnsworth will show up at your house on an inspection tour? Just a thought.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 02:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Just a thought.
And a pretty good one, I'd say.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 02:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Joel,
Excellent build going here, I've been following the camo-conundrum and thought I'd throw in another idea. If you're anything like me, I hate to do a major repaint once I've gotten to your stage in the build. If it isn't to the point of no-return with the markings, and that particular aircraft doesn't have deep sentimental significance, I'd opt to do another aircraft in the same squadron. If the decal library is deep enough, all you should have to do is come up with another aircraft letter and some changes in the serial no. One would think at least one other ship in that unit would have the pattern you've gone with. I've gone that route a couple of times in the past due to one screw-up or another, and besides, what's the chance that Group Captain Farnsworth will show up at your house on an inspection tour? Just a thought.
DMiller,
Thanks for the support. Great build of a great kit, but as Mal said, as major screw up. I just assumed that the camo schemes were more generic like the USAAF did. Lots of leeway with the preferences of the Pilot and Crew Chief taken into consideration to personalize the aircraft. I'll know better next time.
I really like your idea. So your saying to try and change the FY-B to FY-? and change the EN133 to an even number or even a completely different sn: EN354 as an example of a set I have. To replace the B I can substitute A,L,G,S,& W.
I thought about stripping the aircraft down to primer most of today at work, but honesty, I just don't want to go that route at this stage of the build.
Joel
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