World War II
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Eduard 1/48 Limited Edition Spitfire Mk.IX
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 02:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

, I'd opt to do another aircraft in the same squadron. One would think at least one other ship in that unit would have the pattern you've gone with..


Unfortunately, one shouldn't; that pattern was redundant from April 1941, and while it might be possible to find a Mk.V that had it, a Mk.IX is a completely different matter.
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 02:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I wasn't in any way suggesting that you re-paint but it would be wrong of me not to mention the camo Remember I have gone to great lengths to produce camouflage masks for the Spitfire so it just jumped out at me. Steffen is right though that if you haven't applied the decals then you could. I do know though that if you go down that road this could well end up on the shelf of doom! Many won't see the wrong pattern, they will just see a well made Spitfire Mk IX model

Just to be clear; all 4 schemes were not adopted, only the "A" and "B" schemes were put into production.

The 2 schemes were only used for a relatively short time; think prior to and through and maybe just beyond the Battle of Britain period. I'm not sure of the official date on which this prictice was discontinued in favour of just the "A" scheme. To further complicate things the odd, even serial number idea wasn't alwys adhered to and you could find even serial numbered aircraft in the "B" scheme instead of the "A" and visa versa! I also don't know if this practice was applied to all RAF aircraft, but it certainly was to the Hurricane and the Spitfire.

Out of interest an all over mottled scheme was certainly thought about, Dark earth with a regular mottle of dark green! I'll try and find the reference

Anyway Joel none of this take anything away from a very nice build


Quoted Text

BTW, that's one very nice looking MKXVI Spitfire.


Thanks Joel, this was actually the first model that I used my paint masks on



Mal,
Believe me, I know that you were just trying to keep this Yank on the straight and narrow path. If you didn't point out my error, I never would have known, and there would be a 50/50 chance of repeating this error on my next Spit build. I really do appreciate your taking the time to point out my painting errors. And in the future please don't hesitate to do it again as I truly value your expertise.

I spent a good deal of today at work thinking about all of this, and as Steffen suggested, I could strip and repaint. But as I replied to DMiller, I really like his idea as it moves the build forward.

One of the goals of this build is to move past my comfort zone when it comes to realistic weathering. So my focus has been to get to that stage with the best OOB build I can do on this kit. And I'm more then halfway there.

Joel
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 03:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Joel

Lovely build.

If I were re-doing the camouflage, I probably wouldn't strip the model. As your topside colours look beautifully thinly applied, I'd be more tempted to smooth any divisions between colours and re-spray over the top. Stripping the paint off would probably go through the primer and be a real nightmare. I have done that but, as Mal says, it really risks condemning a kit to the Shelf of Doom, because it's pretty messy and soul destroying - cleaning the resulting gunge out of panel lines and nooks and crannies is a thankless task in itself.

All the best

Rowan



Rowan,
I've changed my position so much on this paint scheme, that I'm even getting myself confused.

I was all set to move forward with DMiller's suggestion till I just read Edgar's response. So I'm back to square one. Ok, maybe square two.

Here's the issues I'm facing with repainting. The separation of the Medium Sea Gray bottom color from the top color was a hard line. The masking has to be 100% perfect or it will look terrible. There is no sanding that won't ruin all the detail with the engine panels, so I have only one shot to get it right. I would have to polish out the yellow leading edges as they are fine lined and will show right through the paint. I could never accept that.

I've taken another hard look at the instructions and they're next to useless for doing a correct paint camo scheme as the invasion strips covers so much of it. So I'll invest more time and find a proper set of drawings.

Joel
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 03:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I've taken another hard look at the instructions and they're next to useless for doing a correct paint camo scheme as the invasion strips covers so much of it. So I'll invest more time and find a proper set of drawings.




Just curious how the error came about. Was the scheme in the instructions wrong? You were trying to replicate it without the invasion stripes. What happened?

Brian
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 03:50 AM UTC
Joel,
I was working under the misconception that this was just an "A" scheme "B" scheme issue. Apparently along with the day fighter color scheme change there was also a pattern change as well at some point, is that the drift of this? Edgar, is there a good reference on this whole pattern thing someplace, otherwise I can see other sods such as myself on this side of the pond stumbling over this same wicket repeatedly. This is the kind of thing that makes American's heads hurt. Just paint it green on top, gray on the bottom, or just don't paint the damn thing at all. KISS! (Keep It Simple Stupid). Carry on.
DR
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 05:22 AM UTC
I've just finished masking out the bottom and the fuselage band. I've also downloaded 6 sets of Mk.1Xc A camo paint schemes. One from Tamiya, and 5 from Eduard's site.

Will be just air brushing on the Ocean Gray tonight.

Joel
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 05:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



I've taken another hard look at the instructions and they're next to useless for doing a correct paint camo scheme as the invasion strips covers so much of it. So I'll invest more time and find a proper set of drawings.




Just curious how the error came about. Was the scheme in the instructions wrong? You were trying to replicate it without the invasion stripes. What happened?

Brian



Brian,
I couldn't see enough of the overall camo scheme with all those invasion strips, so I went looking. The issue was I had little knowledge of what to look for. And naturally I picked the wrong one. As I just posted I'm using camo scheme right from the Eduard site.
Joel
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 06:23 AM UTC
Just finished shooting the Dark Sea Gray on. Really not too happy with the way it came out. Just much to much paint on the fuselage and I still have another coat to go. Will see how it looks after I polish the paint out.
Joel
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 10:57 AM UTC
Joel do you want me to send you a set of camo masks? Alternatively I could post my instructions, that will show the scheme?
Holdfast
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 11:02 AM UTC
Here is the instruction page from my Spitfire camouflage masks:



The masks, blue in the instructions, are designed to mask out the ocean grey; and, obviously, being masks they are shown slightly larger than the surface area where they overlap an edge.
EdgarBrooks
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 11:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I was working under the misconception that this was just an "A" scheme "B" scheme issue. Apparently along with the day fighter color scheme change there was also a pattern change as well at some point, is that the drift of this? Edgar, is there a good reference on this whole pattern thing someplace, otherwise I can see other sods such as myself on this side of the pond stumbling over this same wicket repeatedly.


A major problem, in this country, is the authorities' obsession with secrecy; all files, going into the archives, have been closed for at least 30 years, so any author, before 1975-ish, was going by what he knew, or remembered, of that time.
Add in the fun that the archives have been reorganised, so files have been renumbered, even renamed, and civil servants' knowledge of aircraft can be a mite sketchy, at best, so you can probably see how I found an original 1937 Spitfire camouflage drawing in a file marked "Camouflage - Civilian Aircraft."
The abandonment of the mirror scheme was, according to Vickers, ordered by a "DTD Technical Circular no 137," a copy of which I've never yet found, though I've found other circulars scattered through various files.
The 1960s-era series of booklets (plus a 1970-71 condensation into a book,) under the "Camouflage & Markings" banner, is worth seeking out, but they're so old that there is apparently no ISBN for any of them.
Your best hope is that people like Mal stick around on this planet long enough to give you the information you need; just remember that even the daftest, or simplest (to you) question can have a more complex answer than you ever dreamed, so don't be afraid to ask.
Edgar
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 05:58 PM UTC
Well, I checked the paint before I have to get ready to go to work, and I'm really unhappy with the way it came out. I could never live with the way it looks even after rubbing it out, which would bother me 10 times more then having a paint scheme that is wrong.

I just should have left well enough alone. Now I'm faced with striping the paint and trying to clean up the mess if that's even possible.

Mal, thanks for the offer and posting the camo paint scheme. But the odds are pretty good that the Spit will never get to the painting stage any time soon.

Joel
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 07:57 PM UTC
Joel,
very sorry for that upcoming mess! I think that there may be a bigger major problem developing here now
Now at the point of no return you can throw the Spit in a trash bin (I would not!) or completely remove the paint and start at zero.
I tested a lot of things to remove (even old) paints from any surface no matter if it's acrylic or enamel. My best choice, and I recommend this highly, is "Methoxypropanol", formerly known as "Dowanol". Check out for this. Just brush it on the paint, wait 2 minutes and wash all away under water (!).Yes, water! Even enamels and old acrylic paint will disappear. BTW it's also great to remove chrome from plastic parts. Maybe do it twice because of your repaint. Afterwards you'll have an absolutely clean and virgin surface.
It will never react with the plastic.
Anyway, good luck!
Thomas

Edit: Found a link but it's a german scale modelling site.The pictures show the effect.
http://www.wettringer-modellbauforum.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=19753
Joel_W
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 08:13 PM UTC
Thomas,
I have a few methods that would remove all the paint. But it would also destroy the cockpit. Just not worth the effort.

There really isn't any reason for anything more to come of this. I didn't have to do anything other then continue. But for me knowing that the end result no matter what was completely wrong just nagged away at me. I would never be happy with the final results.

Joel
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2015 - 09:19 PM UTC
Hi Joel,

don't be frustrated! just put it away for a few days (or weeks or months) and start over. We all were at this point several times! (me especially)

Thomas' hint is very good and if you look at those pictures you can see that you can use this Methingie (not sure you can freely buy such stuff after "Breaking Bad" ) very precisely so take care and some time and you can save the cockpit!

Calm down, take something new and just have fun building modelkits!

all the best

Steffen
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 01:00 AM UTC
Cheers Thomas

I'll remember your advice for paint stripping - that really does look impressive.

@ Joel - Steffen has it right; take a break from the kit. Give it time and you'll see all is not as bad it seems right now. I've always admired Steffen's tenacity in bringing some great builds back from the point where I'd have probably binned them. His is a really good example to follow.

Modelling's all about enjoyment, so the point at which you're thoroughly p*ssed off with a build is the time to start afresh on another. There's nothing like a clean sheet - or virgin sprues.

All the best

Rowan
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 11:03 AM UTC
Steffen is right, put it away and come back to it.


Quoted Text

Mal, thanks for the offer and posting the camo paint scheme. But the odds are pretty good that the Spit will never get to the painting stage any time soon.



If you change your mind the offer stands, just send me your address, altrnatively I could email you the drawing of the masks so that you can cut them out and use them as paper masks? If you like I will send you a whole set of markings?

I used the Camouflage and markings book to replicate the scheme so it is as accurate as I can make it.
Joel_W
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 06:50 PM UTC
Thanks guys for the moral support. It really helped. As did a full day and night at work away from the bench.

For as long as I can remember I've only built one model at a time. I've re-assessed my options, and for me the best option is to try and just remove the paint and move forward.

Honestly, it would dry me nuts working on another model, knowing that this one got the better of me. If I ruin it, so be it. It sure wouldn't be the 1st time that has happened. On the other hand, if I can get it to the point of repaint, then I've accomplished something that honestly I've never done before.

I'm pretty sure that I've posted here a few times how I marvel at the ability of so many of you to be able to work on multiple kits, or put one down and pick one up. Maybe I have the reverse of Attention-Deficit Disorder

Mal, thanks for the offer, a pm is on the way.

Anyway, it's Sunday here, I'm off from work, the sun is actually shining and the temps just might reach 60 degrees. Will be washing, waxing, and detailing the other love of my life, my Hyundai Sports Coupe.

=

Joel
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Posted: Saturday, April 11, 2015 - 09:18 PM UTC
Joel! I've been attending to the garden all weekend but have been following your predicament anyway! I'm sorry how it all ended up bit I honestly think it is still salvageable, it is probably more a question if you WANT to salvage it! I myself am allergic against redoing stuff, it takes quite a lot of willpower whenever I need to rework something.

If it helps the least, I've been in the same situation. I finally binned mine over the canopy troubles since I couldn't go forward with a new project with this one sitting staring at me from the shelf of doom. Note that I do not want you to do the same, just a link to show a bit of plastic compassion!

It's beautiful weather, spring is here, lots of stuff to be happy about really!



Magnus
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 01:35 AM UTC
Magnus,
Yep, spring finally got here too. A little to early for garden work, but never too early to detail my Hyundai Sports Coupe. My wife says that at times she thinks I love the car more then her. Well, not true, but it's close at times

So I spent a little time this morning testing out the best options for striping the paint off the Spitfire. Then pulled the Coupe out of the garage and spent the next 3 hours washing, detailing, and waxing her. She looks better then the day I brought her home. This is how I keep her other then during the brutal winter months.





I've made a lot of progress striping the paint off the Spitfire with S-L-X Denatured Alcohol using one Qtip after another. Hopefully, in a few days I'll post the full Monty, and then a few with new primer. If it's up to my expectations, then I'll just paint again. The camo paint scheme will be done following Mal's drawings.

Joel

Redhand
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 03:47 AM UTC
Wow, your car is a good as your beautiful as your builds!
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 03:48 AM UTC
Hi Joel,
Been quietly following along,school holidays here in NZ means long days at work to get the classes ready for the next term.

Anyway us mere mortals would have been quite happy with obtaining your original paint finish,and gone close enough..

However I think part of your problem is with your car the steering wheel is on the wrong side,although I'll forgive you since it's a Hyundai.

I've just bought a bright yellow 4 Dr Getz...Now know as the mobile banana.


Cheers


Chris
Joel_W
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 04:17 AM UTC
Brian,
Thanks so much for that compliment. It's the other love of my life.

Chris,
Yeah, we Americans do tend to drive on the wrong side of the road.

Just Googled up a Getz, as it's not sold in the USA. And for 2015 the Coupe isn't sold here either. But it's a true 2 door sports sedan with all the options.
Joel

Joel
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 11:43 AM UTC
Hi Joel,
Good on ya, stripping it back and repainting is penance but it will be worth it. PM coming back at ya

And as you have turned you thread into a car show while we wait for the repaint, here is my new car:





Joel_W
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2015 - 05:22 PM UTC
Mal,
I finished stripping all the paint off yesterday. Washed down the Spit with Iso Alcohol, and today (off from work once again) I'll shoot the Tamiya primer on. Hopefully, it will lay down nice and smooth.

Nice, very nice 2 door sports Kia. Love the color, and the interior really looks quite good with that instrument cluster. Is it a 6 speed manual or auto? I have a auto with an electronic 6 speed sequential gear box, and that's how I drive it most of the time except in stop and go traffic.

Joel