Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
Lozenge Camouflage 101
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 05:40 AM UTC
It looks like the texture is sold separately as another decal. I have worked with the preproduction sets and suggested a couple of changes. The biggest problem is handling. The carrier is clear and can fold over on itself if your not careful.
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
KitMaker: 6,743 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 02:51 PM UTC
Thanks for the tip on the carrier film . Got a message from Tom the other day and he's waiting for the texture ones to come in and will send the decals then . I'm really looking forward to them , man I'm really excited about it actually . The other products he has to offer are awesome as well . Will be investing in his products .
Stephen , your Fokker looks total cool , I love it ! More will be added in my collection of this fantastic bird !
Stephen , your Fokker looks total cool , I love it ! More will be added in my collection of this fantastic bird !
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 - 05:37 PM UTC
I have to admit it. Colour markings are my favorites. But when you get a factory finish to look good, I almost hate to cover them up with personal and unit markings. Almost.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 11:41 AM UTC
In most cases only the wooden portions of the airframes had ribtapes. This meant that specifically the tailplanes veritcal or horizontal did not have rib tapes. This image composite is of the original pieces from Fok. E.V 149/18 note the spine of the vertical stabilizer.
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 02:47 PM UTC
Thanks for the tib-bit Stephen . I wasn't aware of this . 
Is this coverd in the Windsock Datafiles ? Now I can't wait for my to come in the mail , was mailed today so I still have two weeks or more for it to come in . 
Is this coverd in the Windsock Datafiles ? Now I can't wait for my to come in the mail , was mailed today so I still have two weeks or more for it to come in . JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 09:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
"Thanks for the tib-bit Stephen . I wasn't aware of this .
No its not, so I thought I would add it here.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 07:56 AM UTC
Greetings all;
I had this inquiry on the tail unit area lozenge and its applications.
On the subject of late war production Fokker Fighters - No. There were no edging tapes for aileron or elevators. Also ailerons were covered spanwise. You see to do this the whole metal skeletal would have to be wrapped in fabric strips to have something for the the tapes to be sewn to. To do a fabric wrap then a covering then tapes would definately be too bulky and not worth the effort. So they used the "French stitch" to fold the whole covering sewn edges affair over on itself. Take a look at the outside leg seam on a pair of Levi or Wrangler blue jeans to see what I mean.
One possible exception to this is that fabric wrapping of the metal skeletals was seen on some experimental or prototype airframes. As evidence with Fokker F.I 103/17 a preproduction Dr.I. But! production Dr.I types did not have this fabric wrapping with ribtapes sewn in place.
For excellent lozenge decal see;
http://www.microsculpt.com/
I had this inquiry on the tail unit area lozenge and its applications.
Quoted Text
"Stephen: . . .Not to flog a dead horse but .Would it be correct to include edge tapes for ailerons and elevators? Thanks! Merry Christmas!. . ."
On the subject of late war production Fokker Fighters - No. There were no edging tapes for aileron or elevators. Also ailerons were covered spanwise. You see to do this the whole metal skeletal would have to be wrapped in fabric strips to have something for the the tapes to be sewn to. To do a fabric wrap then a covering then tapes would definately be too bulky and not worth the effort. So they used the "French stitch" to fold the whole covering sewn edges affair over on itself. Take a look at the outside leg seam on a pair of Levi or Wrangler blue jeans to see what I mean.
One possible exception to this is that fabric wrapping of the metal skeletals was seen on some experimental or prototype airframes. As evidence with Fokker F.I 103/17 a preproduction Dr.I. But! production Dr.I types did not have this fabric wrapping with ribtapes sewn in place.
For excellent lozenge decal see;
http://www.microsculpt.com/
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 11:20 PM UTC
Here is the restored Fok. D.VII (Alb.) 6796/18 in France.
Rib tapes on this restoration are a solid purple-ish.
Rib tapes on this restoration are a solid purple-ish.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 07:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
They're herrrrrrrre! See the gallery for the higher res images of my builds. Here is the word from Microsculpt's owner Tom Sollers.
"The site went live this morning. The URL is http://www.microsculpt.com
Thank you once again for all your support and time!!! I already have a sheet of Fokker serials partially designed. Feel free to pass along anything you would like to see. I am open to suggestions.
Future release schedule will depend on sales. I've about squeezed my wallet as hard as I can. I'll need some return in order to go forward.
Keep your fingers crossed.
Cheers! Tom "
There is an eval from Ray Rimell in the Windsock issue 25 #1, 2009.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 05:51 AM UTC
Here is Eduard's new version of the four colour next to a sample of their first attempt.
Here is what it should look like.
Here is what it should look like.
Kornbeef
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 1,667 posts
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Posted: Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 06:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Here is Eduard's new version of the four colour next to a sample of their first attempt.
Here is what it should look like.
Scratches my head and wonders...In this day and age with all their expertise and available knowledge... How did they manage to C*ck up that then?
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, March 15, 2009 - 08:52 AM UTC
To go with available colours (and what is cheaper ) they purchase approximate coloured inks and hope you won't mind.
thegirl
Joined: January 19, 2008
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Posted: Monday, March 16, 2009 - 02:24 AM UTC
wow the new colours are way off . i would rather use the olds ones , closer to what the colours should be , but still off in their hues. Still better than when they first started making lozenge in the 90's remember the first kit they came out with (SSW D..III).
Merlin
Senior Editor
#017
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 09:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextHere is Eduard's new version of the four colour next to a sample of their first attempt.
Here is what it should look like.
Scratches my head and wonders...In this day and age with all their expertise and available knowledge... How did they manage to C*ck up that then?
Hi Stephen
Are we mixing up top-side and bottom-side colours here? From my meagre Windsock refs, I've always associated the "salmon pink" with the underside - the Eduard scan is their idea of the topside lozenge (which might explain at least some of the total shock). Overall, it looks somewhat (if you take a gulp of an appropriate vintage and make the requisite allowances) like the French restored example - though the purple is waaayyy off!...
I love this thread! It's illustrating better than anything else I've found the massive strides recently in research into WW1 colours; the early example pics of what's "right" are nothing like the latest.
Thanks for your devotion to the cause! You do us all proud!
All the best
Rowan
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 07:33 AM UTC
Greetings Rowan;
It might be your monitor but to clarify here is the Microsculpt upper surface colours.
Here are the Microsculpt lower surfaces colours
The Eduard stuff is way off. Microsculpt is dead on.
AS to my contributions. They would not be possible without you and Jim.
It might be your monitor but to clarify here is the Microsculpt upper surface colours.
Here are the Microsculpt lower surfaces colours
The Eduard stuff is way off. Microsculpt is dead on.
AS to my contributions. They would not be possible without you and Jim.
Merlin
Senior Editor#017
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 09:04 AM UTC
Greetings Rowan;
It might be your monitor but to clarify here is the Microsculpt upper surface colours.
Here are the Microsculpt lower surfaces colours
The Eduard stuff is way off. Microsculpt is dead on.
AS to my contributions. They would not be possible without you and Jim.
Hi Stephen
Sorry, I hadn't seen the Microsculpt underside scan - the difference stands out a mile!
Presumably the French exhibit is way off...
But my main point about the value of this thread still holds true - it's amazing how the depth of research has increased over just the life of the thread; witness the striking difference between the early pics and the latest:
I'm still intrigued by Peter Grosz's comment that there were considerable colour variations in the lozenge fabrics. That's certainly true of WW2 RLM paints produced by different manufacturers, which even used entirely different ingredients to produce paints that fell broadly within the accepted range. I'd guess that there was similar latitude allowed in the dyes coming from various sources in WW1?
All the best
Rowan
It might be your monitor but to clarify here is the Microsculpt upper surface colours.
Here are the Microsculpt lower surfaces colours
The Eduard stuff is way off. Microsculpt is dead on.
AS to my contributions. They would not be possible without you and Jim.
Hi Stephen
Sorry, I hadn't seen the Microsculpt underside scan - the difference stands out a mile!
Presumably the French exhibit is way off...But my main point about the value of this thread still holds true - it's amazing how the depth of research has increased over just the life of the thread; witness the striking difference between the early pics and the latest:
I'm still intrigued by Peter Grosz's comment that there were considerable colour variations in the lozenge fabrics. That's certainly true of WW2 RLM paints produced by different manufacturers, which even used entirely different ingredients to produce paints that fell broadly within the accepted range. I'd guess that there was similar latitude allowed in the dyes coming from various sources in WW1?
All the best
Rowan
Kornbeef
Joined: November 06, 2005
KitMaker: 1,667 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 09:05 AM UTC
looks at the images above......looks at my Techmod 1/32 lozenge and thinks......best go for a non loz colour scheme on my build then. to me the clours do seem way way out. Someone urge MS along to do some 1/32 quick pleaseeeeeeeeeee :-P
HO Hum
Added... As for the French example.. I suppose yellowing dope or laquer, years of sunlight, grime nicotine and such might alter it somewhat, plus the lighting isnt that good.
HO Hum
Added... As for the French example.. I suppose yellowing dope or laquer, years of sunlight, grime nicotine and such might alter it somewhat, plus the lighting isnt that good.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 09:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Stephen
Sorry, I hadn't seen the Microsculpt underside scan - the difference stands out a mile!
But my main point about the value of this thread still holds true - it's amazing how the depth of research has increased over just the life of the thread; witness the striking difference between the early pics and the latest:. . .
I'm still intrigued by Peter Grosz's comment that there were considerable colour variations in the lozenge fabrics. That's certainly true of WW2 RLM paints produced by different manufacturers, which even used entirely different ingredients to produce paints that fell broadly within the accepted range. I'd guess that there was similar latitude allowed in the dyes coming from various sources in WW1?
All the best
Rowan
Absolutely true Rowan. Your observation are correct.
The French exhibit is 5 colour
5 colour upper
5 colour lower
But consider that the single textile mill that was contracted to do the 5 colour and the other that was contracted to do the 4 colour. The variations were due much like the decal companies to using what was available on the market at the time. BUT this was still regulated by government oversight. vartiations might be acceptable but with the examples we have they were minimal. The dyes were proportionally mixed by batch.
While Peter was a great historian he scoffed openly about researching colours. Yet, Alan Toelle (who has studied WWI fabrics at the Mirco electron level) has a good deal more to say.
Merlin
Senior Editor#017
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 10:03 AM UTC
Hi Stephen
I'd be surprised if German WW1 tolerances were stricter than WW2, but your point about Peter and Alan's respective specialities is telling.
All the best
Rowan
I'd be surprised if German WW1 tolerances were stricter than WW2, but your point about Peter and Alan's respective specialities is telling.
All the best
Rowan
CaptainA
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 09:24 AM UTC
I have been trying to order from Microsculpt for a week, and I keep getting a message that the payment processor is down.
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 08:11 PM UTC
He was talking to me yesterday about a future project. I have a response that I am sending and will include your concern.
CaptainA
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 04:20 AM UTC
Thanks Stephen. Paypal wouldn't work either.
Microsculpt
Joined: June 14, 2004
KitMaker: 11 posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 10:19 AM UTC
Carl and Stephen:
Thank you both!
The payment problem has been fixed. Please give it another try!
Respectfully,
Tom
Thank you both!
The payment problem has been fixed. Please give it another try!
Respectfully,
Tom
CaptainA
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
AeroScale: 2,270 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 11:32 AM UTC
I just placed my order
JackFlash
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,669 posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 07:26 PM UTC
No where else but Aeroscale!
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