Gary,
I know you know what the old expression from the deep south means when I say I'm eating "some old Crow". Honestly, I never imagined you'd get the nose cone this far. I'm truly impressed at your nearly acquired skills, and equally impressed at how far you've come from your comfort zone. I rarely poke my head outside of mine these days.
Joel
World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
B-29 Superfortress Jumbo King of the Show
Joel_W
Associate Editor
Joined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Friday, October 14, 2016 - 11:00 PM UTC
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 02:44 AM UTC
Paul,
Thank you! I'm glad you stopped by.
Joel,
Thank you. Honestly, I don't know how far I'll get with this. I'm making it up and learning as I go. I don't really have a comfort zone, so I feel that the only thing to do is to improve those things that need improvement, yet hold my interest.
Cockpits and hidden details don't hold my interest much. But a perfect canopy, that's another matter. Previous foiled canopies have left me disappointed. Heck, even painted, masked canopies too. It's an area where I need to improve. It needs to look good in close up digital photos, because my naked eye isn't up to the task.
I really only see a new medium as the new way to go.
Best wishes,
Gaz
Thank you! I'm glad you stopped by.
Joel,
Thank you. Honestly, I don't know how far I'll get with this. I'm making it up and learning as I go. I don't really have a comfort zone, so I feel that the only thing to do is to improve those things that need improvement, yet hold my interest.
Cockpits and hidden details don't hold my interest much. But a perfect canopy, that's another matter. Previous foiled canopies have left me disappointed. Heck, even painted, masked canopies too. It's an area where I need to improve. It needs to look good in close up digital photos, because my naked eye isn't up to the task.
I really only see a new medium as the new way to go.
Best wishes,
Gaz
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 08:16 AM UTC
Gaz:
I think you're right to put as much effort into the canopy of the 29 as you are. It is, without doubt, the very first thing that people look at and the impression created is very important. It's why I was very happy to have help in installing the vacuumform glass that's on my OD 29. It definitely looks better than the kit part.
But, I have to tell you, in doing what you're doing I think of that guy that strung cable across the Twin Towers in New York and walked across from one building to the other. One false step! I wish you the best of luck as you tackle the extremely difficult task of opening up the individual windowpanes and establishing the contours there.
I think you're right to put as much effort into the canopy of the 29 as you are. It is, without doubt, the very first thing that people look at and the impression created is very important. It's why I was very happy to have help in installing the vacuumform glass that's on my OD 29. It definitely looks better than the kit part.
But, I have to tell you, in doing what you're doing I think of that guy that strung cable across the Twin Towers in New York and walked across from one building to the other. One false step! I wish you the best of luck as you tackle the extremely difficult task of opening up the individual windowpanes and establishing the contours there.
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 11:49 PM UTC
Brian,
Thanks for coming by. I'm glad you can understand the need to make something special of the greenhouse. My first effort at it using the kit parts was very disappointing.
And I agree that it is like walking a tightrope. The good thing is that I seem to learn something new with every other session of working the metal. So if my foot does come off the rope, restarting won't seem like such a long road to travel.
Gaz
Thanks for coming by. I'm glad you can understand the need to make something special of the greenhouse. My first effort at it using the kit parts was very disappointing.
And I agree that it is like walking a tightrope. The good thing is that I seem to learn something new with every other session of working the metal. So if my foot does come off the rope, restarting won't seem like such a long road to travel.
Gaz
magnusf
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 1,953 posts
AeroScale: 1,902 posts
Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 12:29 PM UTC
Gary! I can't fathom that you actually got your metalwork to fit the plastic fuselage! This is one thing I would never dream of trying because I could never manage to imagine that I should succeed!
I hope you manage to open up those windows, I suppose that is more down to "only" being careful and methodical though, the really hard part must have been the shaping!
Magnus
I hope you manage to open up those windows, I suppose that is more down to "only" being careful and methodical though, the really hard part must have been the shaping!
Magnus
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 07:53 AM UTC
Magnus,
Thank you for stopping by and commenting. I know it's a radical departure from modelling. But I really could see no other way to cancel out the unsteadiness of my hands.
Gaz
Thank you for stopping by and commenting. I know it's a radical departure from modelling. But I really could see no other way to cancel out the unsteadiness of my hands.
Gaz
RussellE
#306
Joined: June 27, 2010
KitMaker: 3,959 posts
AeroScale: 598 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 03:20 AM UTC
Hi Gary!
any progress on this one of late?
any progress on this one of late?
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 04:10 AM UTC
Hi Russell,
In amongst other things I've been working on the front clip. This weekend, just as I was close to removing the window spaces, a crack developed. So, now I need to completely remake the front clip. I was feeling pretty defeated for a while, but it's aproject that I don't want to go unfinished.
The only good news is that with each remaking, I get a little better at it.
In amongst other things I've been working on the front clip. This weekend, just as I was close to removing the window spaces, a crack developed. So, now I need to completely remake the front clip. I was feeling pretty defeated for a while, but it's aproject that I don't want to go unfinished.
The only good news is that with each remaking, I get a little better at it.
stoney
Joined: October 16, 2006
KitMaker: 480 posts
AeroScale: 67 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 09:39 AM UTC
Sorry to hear it cracked on you Gary, I'm glad you're sticking with it as so far its been amazing and I'm sure there are a ton of guys like me lurking and cheering you on!
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 11:31 AM UTC
Eric,
Thank you for the support!
Gaz
Thank you for the support!
Gaz
KelticKnot
Joined: May 11, 2015
KitMaker: 768 posts
AeroScale: 656 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 11:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry to hear it cracked on you Gary, I'm glad you're sticking with it as so far its been amazing and I'm sure there are a ton of guys like me lurking and cheering you on!
Indeed!
Commiserations on the pesky nose cone cracking. Have you considered casting the next one so you dont have to remake it again? Could maybe make removing the windows easier too???
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 02:14 PM UTC
Paul,
Thank you! I really don't know anything about working with molten metals. I have learned this by mistake: Once you melt the aluminium piece you are working with, it becomes unusable.
Gaz
Thank you! I really don't know anything about working with molten metals. I have learned this by mistake: Once you melt the aluminium piece you are working with, it becomes unusable.
Gaz
RussellE
#306
Joined: June 27, 2010
KitMaker: 3,959 posts
AeroScale: 598 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 04:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Russell,
In amongst other things I've been working on the front clip. This weekend, just as I was close to removing the window spaces, a crack developed. So, now I need to completely remake the front clip. I was feeling pretty defeated for a while, but it's aproject that I don't want to go unfinished.
The only good news is that with each remaking, I get a little better at it.
Sorry to hear about the crack Gaz! Great to know you are sticking with it though-as someone else posted there's a few of us lurking here looking forward to seeing you complete this beauty!
KelticKnot
Joined: May 11, 2015
KitMaker: 768 posts
AeroScale: 656 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 06:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Paul,
Thank you! I really don't know anything about working with molten metals. I have learned this by mistake: Once you melt the aluminium piece you are working with, it becomes unusable.
Gaz
Hi Gaz, I hadn't actually considered casting metal but resin.
pnance26
Joined: January 22, 2016
KitMaker: 766 posts
AeroScale: 103 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 10:33 PM UTC
Gaz,
Having just read through 16 pages of post over a span of two years, I know several things...
1) you truly are an amazing model builder
2) you have an amazing sense of detail
3) you won't settle for the "same old stuff"
4) you have an incredible ability to think outside the box
5) you have the patience of Job
6) you are opening doors (and windows) for all of us as we learn from you and your craftsmanship.
Thank you for sharing all the photos and amount of knowledge you have gleaned over the course of this project.
I was wondering though about the foil you were using... I only work with BMF as I only do small projects like car trim. And you talk about glue under the foil. One of the worst problems with BMF is the lack of adhesive qualities especially as it ages. You can end up with whole sheets of foil that are "worthless". I was wondering if your gluing technique would work under BMF.
This is an amazing project that most would do with Alclad paints. I applaud you and your work. They are most deserving of the statement "museum quality"!
Having just read through 16 pages of post over a span of two years, I know several things...
1) you truly are an amazing model builder
2) you have an amazing sense of detail
3) you won't settle for the "same old stuff"
4) you have an incredible ability to think outside the box
5) you have the patience of Job
6) you are opening doors (and windows) for all of us as we learn from you and your craftsmanship.
Thank you for sharing all the photos and amount of knowledge you have gleaned over the course of this project.
I was wondering though about the foil you were using... I only work with BMF as I only do small projects like car trim. And you talk about glue under the foil. One of the worst problems with BMF is the lack of adhesive qualities especially as it ages. You can end up with whole sheets of foil that are "worthless". I was wondering if your gluing technique would work under BMF.
This is an amazing project that most would do with Alclad paints. I applaud you and your work. They are most deserving of the statement "museum quality"!
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Monday, April 10, 2017 - 04:25 AM UTC
Patrick,
Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you like the work I've done.
I'm not an expert on BMF. I've bought one sheet for this project, so can only say what I've seen from that one sheet. That sheet uses a rubbery cement giving added stretchability to the foil. The cement I use is a relative of PVA, I think.
I've read that if you use the stuff I'm using over paint, it will cause the paint to roll asyou work the foil into position. So maybe a second substance between plastic and foil may cause a problem.
The Microscale glue is really inexpensive. Like five bucks a bottle. It would seem a small price to pay to either reduce your dependency on BMF our possibly widen your repertoire.
Best wishes,
Gaz
Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you like the work I've done.
I'm not an expert on BMF. I've bought one sheet for this project, so can only say what I've seen from that one sheet. That sheet uses a rubbery cement giving added stretchability to the foil. The cement I use is a relative of PVA, I think.
I've read that if you use the stuff I'm using over paint, it will cause the paint to roll asyou work the foil into position. So maybe a second substance between plastic and foil may cause a problem.
The Microscale glue is really inexpensive. Like five bucks a bottle. It would seem a small price to pay to either reduce your dependency on BMF our possibly widen your repertoire.
Best wishes,
Gaz
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, April 10, 2017 - 05:28 AM UTC
I'm glad to see some activity on this Gary. I figured you ran into some major major problems with the canopy glass. You know, it might make sense to have this handmade by someone else. I was at a model convention up here in northern New Jersey a couple of weeks ago and met the proprietor of "Resin-2-Detail," who has modeled quite a few really interesting accessories and improvements to the buddy crib B-17 among other aircraft. He told me he does all his work with a CAD system. Maybe that cutting out resin, or even clear resin, would be the way to go on this. As a fallback I would strongly suggest the squadron vacuum form cockpit canopy. It is the right shape.
Look forward to hearing more.
Brian
Look forward to hearing more.
Brian
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Monday, April 10, 2017 - 07:23 AM UTC
Hey Brian,
Glad to hear from you. It's not made me happy to have fallen behind on this build. There have been some failed attempts, but mostly I've been over committed with other builds and toys. A build for my club, a build for my aging father, a new computer game.
Although it may make sense to find someone who could make it for me, it would defeat the purpose of learning to do it myself. Making it from any other material beside a shiny white metal would still see me needing to work it with foil. The only wary to go would be either to complete it myself, or to find a skilled metal worker.
Hand shaping metal it's one of those dying arts. I've looked around for a mentor unsuccessfully. I've poured over search results and watched a lot of YouTube. But most stuff out there deals with panel beating and stuff. Or making things like cups.
So I'm pretty much stuck learning as I fail.
Gaz
Glad to hear from you. It's not made me happy to have fallen behind on this build. There have been some failed attempts, but mostly I've been over committed with other builds and toys. A build for my club, a build for my aging father, a new computer game.
Although it may make sense to find someone who could make it for me, it would defeat the purpose of learning to do it myself. Making it from any other material beside a shiny white metal would still see me needing to work it with foil. The only wary to go would be either to complete it myself, or to find a skilled metal worker.
Hand shaping metal it's one of those dying arts. I've looked around for a mentor unsuccessfully. I've poured over search results and watched a lot of YouTube. But most stuff out there deals with panel beating and stuff. Or making things like cups.
So I'm pretty much stuck learning as I fail.
Gaz
Pave-Hawk
Joined: May 05, 2006
KitMaker: 900 posts
AeroScale: 200 posts
Posted: Monday, April 10, 2017 - 07:40 AM UTC
Damn shame to hear the part cracked, it was looking really nice.
I didn't see if you said somewhere else, but did you try annealing the part after the hammer work?
I didn't see if you said somewhere else, but did you try annealing the part after the hammer work?
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Monday, April 10, 2017 - 10:54 AM UTC
Iain,
Thank you. The part gets annealed many times as it's hammered into shape. I'm not even sure when it cracked.
One problem I've noticed through all of my attempts is that the metal closest the bomber's glaze get thinner than the areas further back. That's one reason I stepped up to a thicker sheet of aluminium. And that's exactly the area that cracked, despite using thicker aluminium.
Unfortunately for me, I haven't found anyone making that shape on video. All sphere videos involve creating wedges or hemispheres. But I just had a thought about making an egg with metal. I'll google that and see if it helps any.
Gaz
Thank you. The part gets annealed many times as it's hammered into shape. I'm not even sure when it cracked.
One problem I've noticed through all of my attempts is that the metal closest the bomber's glaze get thinner than the areas further back. That's one reason I stepped up to a thicker sheet of aluminium. And that's exactly the area that cracked, despite using thicker aluminium.
Unfortunately for me, I haven't found anyone making that shape on video. All sphere videos involve creating wedges or hemispheres. But I just had a thought about making an egg with metal. I'll google that and see if it helps any.
Gaz
rdt1953
Joined: February 06, 2015
KitMaker: 1,098 posts
AeroScale: 900 posts
Posted: Monday, April 10, 2017 - 03:55 PM UTC
Gary - While I realize it is not the same as doing it yourself, your piece could probably made by metal spinning . It is essentially a flat disc of metal spun in a lathe and pushed into shape over a form - in your case likely a wooden plug turned to the inside dimension of your workpiece. There are specialists who do this and it may be cost prohibitive- just a thought if push comes to shove.
Keep at it - we all admire what you've done . Richard
Keep at it - we all admire what you've done . Richard
pnance26
Joined: January 22, 2016
KitMaker: 766 posts
AeroScale: 103 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 12:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Patrick,
Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you like the work I've done.
I'm not an expert on BMF. I've bought one sheet for this project, so can only say what I've seen from that one sheet. That sheet uses a rubbery cement giving added stretchability to the foil. The cement I use is a relative of PVA, I think.
I've read that if you use the stuff I'm using over paint, it will cause the paint to roll asyou work the foil into position. So maybe a second substance between plastic and foil may cause a problem.
The Microscale glue is really inexpensive. Like five bucks a bottle. It would seem a small price to pay to either reduce your dependency on BMF our possibly widen your repertoire.
Best wishes,
Gaz
What foil product are you using?
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 11:23 AM UTC
Patrick,
I got my start with foiling on this website:
http://www.finescale.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/6/7/d/foiledlightning1.pdf
The glue I use is Microscale Metal Foil Adhesive. It's listed on the website.
Gaz
I got my start with foiling on this website:
http://www.finescale.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/6/7/d/foiledlightning1.pdf
The glue I use is Microscale Metal Foil Adhesive. It's listed on the website.
Gaz
pnance26
Joined: January 22, 2016
KitMaker: 766 posts
AeroScale: 103 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 08:09 PM UTC
Is the foil MicroScale product as well?
Wait, are you telling me that you are using regular old household aluminum foil? That's amazzzzzzing as I have never seen it so smooth!
I am speechless!
Wait, are you telling me that you are using regular old household aluminum foil? That's amazzzzzzing as I have never seen it so smooth!
I am speechless!
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
AeroScale: 1,938 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 10:59 PM UTC
Patrick,
Not regular household foil, but the thinnest and cheapest you can get. Don't buy Reynolds wrap...that stuff is like armor plate compared to what you want. Once burnished down then you can polish it with aluminum polish to almost a mirror sheen which is a messy process. You can wipe off any excess polish with turpentine or acetone depending on the polish you buy and the surfaces around the foiled area.
Here is my first experiment with the aluminum polish. (Scroll to the bottom of the page): http://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/forums/239909#2023591
Gaz
Not regular household foil, but the thinnest and cheapest you can get. Don't buy Reynolds wrap...that stuff is like armor plate compared to what you want. Once burnished down then you can polish it with aluminum polish to almost a mirror sheen which is a messy process. You can wipe off any excess polish with turpentine or acetone depending on the polish you buy and the surfaces around the foiled area.
Here is my first experiment with the aluminum polish. (Scroll to the bottom of the page): http://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/forums/239909#2023591
Gaz
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