World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
1/48 B-17F Build - 303rd BGs Luscious Lady
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 03:07 PM UTC
One other little detail: Those small portable oxygen bottles were apple green, not the standard yellow. I do not know why, the bail out bottles were as well. The later, larger portable bottles were yellow.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 06:09 PM UTC
Brian,
Just an incrediable amount of detail added to the radio room. Karl's picture does seam to show some type of covering over part of the floor.
Joel
Just an incrediable amount of detail added to the radio room. Karl's picture does seam to show some type of covering over part of the floor.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 06:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
One other little detail: Those small portable oxygen bottles were apple green, not the standard yellow. I do not know why, the bail out bottles were as well. The later, larger portable bottles were yellow.
Yes, I've seen these. Nobody seems to make them in 1/48 so I just decided to go with the yellow ones, but "duly noted." I like the detail pic of the green one you posted!
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 06:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Karl's picture does seam to show some type of covering over part of the floor.
Joel
You're right. The pic shows some kind of covering over the whole floor. I'm thinking I may go with 600 grit sandpaper everywhere, after one trick up my sleeve before I apply it. More on that later.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 07:03 PM UTC
Brian,
Rather then gluing down 600 emery cloth paper, I've found that 3M masking tape does an excellent job of showing texture, will never pull up, and is much thinner, leaving you with a better scale effect. It comes in widths up to several inches so you shouldn't have any issues with the width of the mats.
Joel
Rather then gluing down 600 emery cloth paper, I've found that 3M masking tape does an excellent job of showing texture, will never pull up, and is much thinner, leaving you with a better scale effect. It comes in widths up to several inches so you shouldn't have any issues with the width of the mats.
Joel
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 08:37 PM UTC
To me, the photo I posted shows the anti skid down the center and bare plywood on either side.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 09:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
To me, the photo I posted shows the anti skid down the center and bare plywood on either side.
Noted. I'll figure it out. My preference would be plywood and non-skid in center if factually supportable.
krow113
Joined: March 16, 2010
KitMaker: 473 posts
AeroScale: 101 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 21, 2015 - 09:58 PM UTC
I'm watching to see where you put the ball turret ammo boxes. Definitive build thread in progress here.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 12:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Definitive build thread in progress here.
There are many times when it feels more like a never ending nightmare rather than a "definitive build."
I'm not sure I would recommend this to anyone. My own brand of multi-year madness with no end in sight.
Merlin
Senior Editor
#017
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,582 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 12:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you Merlin! I also know that “against the wall” feeling. Been there done that. “You defeated me, but you will die for it!...”
Hi Brian
I'll definitely consult you before tackling the early conversion, because I imagine you must have come across loads of refs in the course of this project that don't apply to your build, but could help with an early bird. I seriously doubt that I'll ever attempt your level of detail, but anything that helps avoid major howlers will be incredibly welcome.
All the best
Rowan
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 01:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThank you Merlin! I also know that “against the wall” feeling. Been there done that. “You defeated me, but you will die for it!...”
Hi Brian
I'll definitely consult you before tackling the early conversion, because I imagine you must have come across loads of refs in the course of this project that don't apply to your build, but could help with an early bird. I seriously doubt that I'll ever attempt your level of detail, but anything that helps avoid major howlers will be incredibly welcome.
All the best
Rowan
Be happy to help when the times comes, Rowan. Both your projects are also on my "to do list," BTW
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 01:19 AM UTC
Please, please, please, don't put the ball turret ammo boxes on the outside. I know there are restored birds with that turret but I can find no evidence that they made it into wartime B-17's. Photographs and interviews with vets ( I asked that very question of a 100th BG ball gunner this weekend, he flew at the end of the war in late model birds) have shown it just didn't happen. Very late B-24's, yes. B-17's, no.
This photo is of 43-38852 and this damage happened March 14 1945. Only weeks left in the war in Europe. Note the ball does not have external ammo boxes. No, they were not blown off or removed. I know the man who was the crew chief on this bird (that is not him in the photo)and he remembers it all quite well.
This photo is of 43-38852 and this damage happened March 14 1945. Only weeks left in the war in Europe. Note the ball does not have external ammo boxes. No, they were not blown off or removed. I know the man who was the crew chief on this bird (that is not him in the photo)and he remembers it all quite well.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 01:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Please, please, please, don't put the ball turret ammo boxes on the outside. I know there are restored birds with that turret but I can find no evidence that they made it into wartime B-17's. Photographs and interviews with vets ( I asked that very question of a 100th BG ball gunner this weekend, he flew at the end of the war in late model birds) have shown it just didn't happen. Very late B-24's, yes. B-17's, no.
Another area where I am somewhat clueless. I thought the ammo was carried in two large aluminum bins that were above the ball turret on the large revolving bracket, so that they rotated with it. I mean, as a practical matter with a revolving turret, how could they be anywhere but in the revolving frame just above the ball? That's what my illustrations seem to show.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 01:55 AM UTC
The ammo was inside the ball. Squadron put that drawing in one of their B-17 books and some of the restored birds have the external cans so people assume it is correct. Then ROG and HK added them to their models (HK REALLY screwed to pooch as they would have you mount the cans on the aft radio room bulkhead) and away we went. In this exploded view of the ball, you can see the ammunition was in the top of the turret. It was loaded from above.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 04:22 AM UTC
Making the ball even more cramped than I had imagined. Remarkable! Thanks.
krow113
Joined: March 16, 2010
KitMaker: 473 posts
AeroScale: 101 posts
Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 04:47 AM UTC
Thanks for that on the ball turret ammo. I have the HK kit and a 2 year old can see the boxes mounted to the rear radio room bulkhead could prove to be problematic!
When that kit came out it was shredded completly on LSP's forum. The snotty 'experts' there chose to ridicule my inquiry's into the ball turret ammo storage(and pretty much any input from me). Good to see an informative answer rather than a snot-ass run around.
'Definitive" ? Maybe not, but an excellent effort none the less.
Thank you.
When that kit came out it was shredded completly on LSP's forum. The snotty 'experts' there chose to ridicule my inquiry's into the ball turret ammo storage(and pretty much any input from me). Good to see an informative answer rather than a snot-ass run around.
'Definitive" ? Maybe not, but an excellent effort none the less.
Thank you.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 22, 2015 - 05:23 PM UTC
I know what you mean about people being obnoxious when questions are asked. That is idiotic, if someone asks a question, it is because they simply don't know or at least want clarification. The ball turret has fascinated me from the first Revell B-17F I built back in the 60's (the famous rivet covered "Memphis Belle"). Through perseverance and a little luck, I have collected a fair amount of information on it. I have also met a number of B-17 crewmen through my tours with "Sentimental Journey" and 100th BG reunions. And of course I ask a lot of questions 
; some folks remember, some don't. It has been quite interesting. I crawled in Journey's ball one time and it was cozy, my knees were really close to those ammo cans. Can't imagine doing it in heavy flying gear. I'm 5'10", a little taller than guys of that era but I also know a guy from the 100th who is 6' who was a ball gunner. He said it was cramped, but he was young, skinny, and flexible back then!
; some folks remember, some don't. It has been quite interesting. I crawled in Journey's ball one time and it was cozy, my knees were really close to those ammo cans. Can't imagine doing it in heavy flying gear. I'm 5'10", a little taller than guys of that era but I also know a guy from the 100th who is 6' who was a ball gunner. He said it was cramped, but he was young, skinny, and flexible back then!Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 08:27 AM UTC
FLOORFLUSHER [PUN INTENDED]
Well, the forward RR bulkhead is finally finished
and it's time to move on to the floor. I benefited from Karl's [bloody] picture of the floor not only because it showed the finishes, but also because it pointed out a flaw in the kit part:
You can see that the kit part has the center door raised with some kind of frame around it, whereas the real door was flush with the floor, per Karl's photo.
To fix this I'm going to have to become a floorflusher. [Get it? However, I only learned tonight that the real term is "four flusher."] Thanks Popeye.
Anyway, here's what I did to make the floor flush:
And here it is completely covered:
Obviously, the work on the floor has just begun.
Well, the forward RR bulkhead is finally finished
and it's time to move on to the floor. I benefited from Karl's [bloody] picture of the floor not only because it showed the finishes, but also because it pointed out a flaw in the kit part:
You can see that the kit part has the center door raised with some kind of frame around it, whereas the real door was flush with the floor, per Karl's photo.
To fix this I'm going to have to become a floorflusher. [Get it? However, I only learned tonight that the real term is "four flusher."] Thanks Popeye.
Anyway, here's what I did to make the floor flush:
And here it is completely covered:
Obviously, the work on the floor has just begun.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 06:35 PM UTC
Brian,
Nice start to the flush door on the floor. With your skills it should turn out perfectly.
Joel
Nice start to the flush door on the floor. With your skills it should turn out perfectly.
Joel
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 10:30 PM UTC
Okay, you piqued my curiousity. I HAD to look up "four flusher" ! And it certainly does not apply to you, you ain't bluffin', you're the real thing!!! Looking good, keep 'em coming.
! And it certainly does not apply to you, you ain't bluffin', you're the real thing!!! Looking good, keep 'em coming. Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 11:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Okay, you piqued my curiousity. I HAD to look up "four flusher"
The pun was too good to pass up, especially since I learned for the first time that the Popeye cartoon was actually a pun on the original saying. All my life I've believed that "floor flusher" was the actual saying, not "four flusher."
"You learn something every day."
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 12:23 AM UTC
Brian,
Actually, I grew up know what the phrase 4 flusher meant a liar. Didn't know it actually referred to a one card short flush in poker.
Joel
Actually, I grew up know what the phrase 4 flusher meant a liar. Didn't know it actually referred to a one card short flush in poker.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 07:48 PM UTC
FLOOR 'N DOOR
With all this talk about the ball turret I decided to keep things interesting by opening up the rear radio room door (something I had promised myself not to do!). Here's a "first cut" view. I also like the way the floor looks now that it is primed.
With all this talk about the ball turret I decided to keep things interesting by opening up the rear radio room door (something I had promised myself not to do!). Here's a "first cut" view. I also like the way the floor looks now that it is primed.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 08:41 PM UTC
QUESTIONS FOR KARL
In the photo I posted above, how do you interpret the ammo belts above the ball turret? Real or a restoration fantasy?
I am also wondering if there was any way to reload ammo for the ball during missions. If not, it would be the only gun station on the A/C where that was not possible. Your views?
I also wonder if what we're seeing above is actually part of the ammo supply for the waist guns. Looks like it could be.
In the photo I posted above, how do you interpret the ammo belts above the ball turret? Real or a restoration fantasy?
I am also wondering if there was any way to reload ammo for the ball during missions. If not, it would be the only gun station on the A/C where that was not possible. Your views?
I also wonder if what we're seeing above is actually part of the ammo supply for the waist guns. Looks like it could be.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015 - 11:48 PM UTC
Brian, that is one of those restorations with the external ammo boxes. Nothing to do with the waist guns. Further aft you can see the chutes going to the waist guns. Since the cover for the internal cans was on top of the turret, then yes, somebody could refill his supply.
Do you know which airplane that is? Radio gear is looking kind of rough !
Do you know which airplane that is? Radio gear is looking kind of rough
!
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