The very few people that I ever got an answer to that question from said they left it with the crew chief. It was hazardous to remove/replace in flight, so they just left it behind. Most guys I have spoken to were there in the later stages of the war when that gun was either enclosed or removed. Barring that, I guess you could just set it in the corner or stick over the bomb bay where the gun would have been stored. And the more I think about it, the more I like the latter answer. Your version is certainly possible as well.
World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
1/48 B-17F Build - 303rd BGs Luscious Lady
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2015 - 11:48 PM UTC
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2015 - 12:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The very few people that I ever got an answer to that question from said they left it with the crew chief. It was hazardous to remove/replace in flight, so they just left it behind. Most guys I have spoken to were there in the later stages of the war when that gun was either enclosed or removed. Barring that, I guess you could just set it in the corner or stick over the bomb bay where the gun would have been stored. And the more I think about it, the more I like the latter answer. Your version is certainly possible as well.
Well, I will go with what an actual radioman on this aircraft told me he did. That was George F. Hoyt on Hullar's crew and he said he put it on the floor. So I'll opt for the "lean to" approach I've described.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2015 - 02:38 AM UTC
Well there ya go, perfect. First hand information. Did he mention if the crew chief made a stand for it? That seems like something he would do for his crew.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2015 - 02:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Well there ya go, perfect. First hand information. Did he mention if the crew chief made a stand for it? That seems like something he would do for his crew.
No, this is supposition on my part. As I said, a bit of poetic license looking at the whole area. I will try to keep the brackets very subtle.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 07:07 AM UTC
RR STBD BULKHEAD - "RESEARCH PICS"
It's time for me to start this. I will work forward-aft.
It looks like the significant details are (1) electrical wiring running fore and aft to the waist section, but also providing some electrical service to the (2) two oxygen stations that would service the two occupants of the seats on the stbd. floor of the RR.
Except, of course, that the seats were removed in the ETO. (After discussions with Karl, I opted to keep the oxygen stations "for the wounded.")
Here's the best pic I have of the forward section:
Here's the mid section:
And here's a shot of the rear:
It's not clear exactly where everything went, so some educated guesswork will be necessary install all the gingerbread here:
It's time for me to start this. I will work forward-aft.
It looks like the significant details are (1) electrical wiring running fore and aft to the waist section, but also providing some electrical service to the (2) two oxygen stations that would service the two occupants of the seats on the stbd. floor of the RR.
Except, of course, that the seats were removed in the ETO. (After discussions with Karl, I opted to keep the oxygen stations "for the wounded.")
Here's the best pic I have of the forward section:
Here's the mid section:
And here's a shot of the rear:
It's not clear exactly where everything went, so some educated guesswork will be necessary install all the gingerbread here:
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2015 - 08:06 AM UTC
Brian,
An excellent start. Once again, your research material is amazing.
Joel
An excellent start. Once again, your research material is amazing.
Joel
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2015 - 04:09 AM UTC
Here is a photo of the aft left side of the radio compartment and you should already have the right. Other than the radio gear and the hand cranks with their extensions, there wasn't a whole lot. Some airplanes had a rack of ammo cans mounted on the right sidewall or a wooden ammo box.
Borntman
Joined: May 23, 2012
KitMaker: 33 posts
AeroScale: 13 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2015 - 04:26 AM UTC
This was a pleasure to read in one shot. The quality of research is only matched by the quality of the build. And best of all its provided to all of us to view and hopefully learn from.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, July 27, 2015 - 06:42 PM UTC
SLOW AS MOLASSES
RR progress has been slow due to real life responsibilities, but the astute observer will note that I moved the radio room chair back to the "kit location," because I felt it was positioned too close to the table. (Great fun, BTW). Compare, original, below.
with this:
You can see electrical wiring on the stbd. bulkhead. I have license to figure out how I'm going to handle the oxygen stations there due to many configuration ambiguities and changes. Once I figure that out, I'll do it.
To all, thanks for continuing encouragement and support.
RR progress has been slow due to real life responsibilities, but the astute observer will note that I moved the radio room chair back to the "kit location," because I felt it was positioned too close to the table. (Great fun, BTW). Compare, original, below.
with this:
You can see electrical wiring on the stbd. bulkhead. I have license to figure out how I'm going to handle the oxygen stations there due to many configuration ambiguities and changes. Once I figure that out, I'll do it.
To all, thanks for continuing encouragement and support.
KPHB17FE
Joined: January 12, 2015
KitMaker: 292 posts
AeroScale: 292 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 02:38 AM UTC
Here is a radio gun ammunition box. This Cheyenne Mod Center Drawing is dated 2/24/44 but it could have been an idea from the field and standardized. Another option would be a rack of the 30 round boxes. I have seen that installation as well...somewhere 
Either would be "correct" as far as we know and would add a bit to your compartment.
Here is the 30 round box I mentioned. A rack of four or five of these can be mounted on that sidewall.
Either would be "correct" as far as we know and would add a bit to your compartment.
Here is the 30 round box I mentioned. A rack of four or five of these can be mounted on that sidewall.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 01, 2015 - 08:34 PM UTC
SLOW AS MOLASSES (CONTINUED)
Real-life responsibilities continued to interfere with the really important things in life, like this build. However, to appropriate a time-honored phrase, "Progress continues."
The below photograph is my template for what follows.
I.e., a dual oxygen station for the two right-hand seats (that were removed) on the assumption that the oxygen stations would stay. You can see the beginnings of my construction of this in the picture that follows. Obviously, paint and tubing must be added, in addition to oxygen hoses.
One of the nicer surprises in this build can be seen below. As I mentioned before, the late George Hoyt, radio room operator of Luscious Lady, told me that the large hatch was laid on the floor during missions. Without checking the dimensions, I somehow convinced myself that this "had to be wrong somehow" because the hatch would interfere with fore and aft movement through the radio room. Because of this, I wasted an enormous amount of mental energy trying to figure out the best way to place a vertical stand for the hatch against the starboard bulkhead.
A simple fit of the hatch on the floor would have shown me that George quite knew what he was talking about: he was there. The hatch fits perfectly on the right side of the floor and that's where it's going in this build.
My day job should be slightly less hectic the next couple of weeks and I hope to get some posts in showing evening progress in addition to weekend work.
Real-life responsibilities continued to interfere with the really important things in life, like this build. However, to appropriate a time-honored phrase, "Progress continues."
The below photograph is my template for what follows.
I.e., a dual oxygen station for the two right-hand seats (that were removed) on the assumption that the oxygen stations would stay. You can see the beginnings of my construction of this in the picture that follows. Obviously, paint and tubing must be added, in addition to oxygen hoses.
One of the nicer surprises in this build can be seen below. As I mentioned before, the late George Hoyt, radio room operator of Luscious Lady, told me that the large hatch was laid on the floor during missions. Without checking the dimensions, I somehow convinced myself that this "had to be wrong somehow" because the hatch would interfere with fore and aft movement through the radio room. Because of this, I wasted an enormous amount of mental energy trying to figure out the best way to place a vertical stand for the hatch against the starboard bulkhead.
A simple fit of the hatch on the floor would have shown me that George quite knew what he was talking about: he was there. The hatch fits perfectly on the right side of the floor and that's where it's going in this build.
My day job should be slightly less hectic the next couple of weeks and I hope to get some posts in showing evening progress in addition to weekend work.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 02, 2015 - 03:08 AM UTC
Brian,
While it fits where you've put it. What holds it in place when the aircraft is bouncing around?
Joel
While it fits where you've put it. What holds it in place when the aircraft is bouncing around?
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 02, 2015 - 03:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
While it fits where you've put it. What holds it in place when the aircraft is bouncing around?
Joel
Well, yes. I will have to put some kind of tie-downs on the floor. I have a couple of ideas.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 02, 2015 - 05:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextBrian,
While it fits where you've put it. What holds it in place when the aircraft is bouncing around?
Joel
Well, yes. I will have to put some kind of tie-downs on the floor. I have a couple of ideas.
Brian,
Is that what they did?
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 02, 2015 - 06:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextBrian,
While it fits where you've put it. What holds it in place when the aircraft is bouncing around?
Joel
Well, yes. I will have to put some kind of tie-downs on the floor. I have a couple of ideas.
Brian,
Is that what they did?
Joel
We are in the realm of educated guesswork. I may use some of my eye-bolts from the bomb bay catwalk to create attachment points for "rope" to secure the hatch to the floor. George Hoyt said he just put it on the floor, and I didn't ask more.
Thearmorer
Joined: June 17, 2014
KitMaker: 121 posts
AeroScale: 118 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 02, 2015 - 08:29 PM UTC
Brian,
I am supposing that the final result of this grand endeavor will be an aircraft sitting on the line getting ready for a mission or something to that effect. In that setting, placing the hatch cover anyplace out of the way would be appropriate. Harkening back to my days in aircraft maintenance, that is what we did with the top escape hatches on the C-130s. In flight I suspect that if there wasn't a designated stowage space, then the hatch would be wedged between the seat and the sidewall or the seat and the radio table. Just someplace to keep it out of the way and not bouncing about the radio room.
DR
I am supposing that the final result of this grand endeavor will be an aircraft sitting on the line getting ready for a mission or something to that effect. In that setting, placing the hatch cover anyplace out of the way would be appropriate. Harkening back to my days in aircraft maintenance, that is what we did with the top escape hatches on the C-130s. In flight I suspect that if there wasn't a designated stowage space, then the hatch would be wedged between the seat and the sidewall or the seat and the radio table. Just someplace to keep it out of the way and not bouncing about the radio room.
DR
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, August 03, 2015 - 03:32 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
I am supposing that the final result of this grand endeavor will be an aircraft sitting on the line getting ready for a mission or something to that effect. In that setting, placing the hatch cover anyplace out of the way would be appropriate. Harkening back to my days in aircraft maintenance, that is what we did with the top escape hatches on the C-130s. In flight I suspect that if there wasn't a designated stowage space, then the hatch would be wedged between the seat and the sidewall or the seat and the radio table. Just someplace to keep it out of the way and not bouncing about the radio room.
DR
Yeah, a diorama in a case is the plan. This is an oooooooooold project going back to 1999, which started as a marketing draw for "Half A Wing" book signings where the model would be displayed in a portable case. Now it will be displayed in a similar, glass enclosed case with a top that can be opened. D'oh, maybe the ultimate office coffee table?
I'm continuing work on the RR. Will get some more done before posting additional pics. I have decided to take George Hoyt, pictured below
at his word and will lay the cover on the floor. However, I will add some tie-downs with "rope" running across the lateral framing of the hatch cover to address the "bouncing" issue.Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 - 03:36 PM UTC
SLOW AS MOLASSES (CONTINUED II)
OK, here's the dual orygen station I cobbled together for the stbd RR bulkhead, with "impressionistic" oxygen piping below running to the source in the orygen bottles under the floor and with piping above, and a dash of clear blue to simulate fittings. Fool the eye stuff.
Here's another shot showing what I was trying to model in the background.
Who knows what it really looked like on the real A/C? I have seen far more simplified stations in grainy B&W pics, but settled for this.
I will next add oxygen hose, then finally fix that over-discussed glass hatch to the floor, with fanciful tie down straps that a radioman's ghost
told me were there in a recent dream. 
P.S. Yes, this stuff will be visible in the background through the open radio room hatch.
OK, here's the dual orygen station I cobbled together for the stbd RR bulkhead, with "impressionistic" oxygen piping below running to the source in the orygen bottles under the floor and with piping above, and a dash of clear blue to simulate fittings. Fool the eye stuff.
Here's another shot showing what I was trying to model in the background.
Who knows what it really looked like on the real A/C? I have seen far more simplified stations in grainy B&W pics, but settled for this.
I will next add oxygen hose, then finally fix that over-discussed glass hatch to the floor, with fanciful tie down straps that a radioman's ghost
told me were there in a recent dream. P.S. Yes, this stuff will be visible in the background through the open radio room hatch.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 06, 2015 - 01:37 AM UTC
Brian,
The radio Operator's station is really coming together quite nicely.
Joel
The radio Operator's station is really coming together quite nicely.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Friday, August 07, 2015 - 07:11 AM UTC
RR STBD BULKHEAD DONE
Finally. I dabbed on some brass paint over the blue, which a little bird told me was a modern abomination in restored aircraft. Then I fixed up a couple of oxygen hoses with connectors at the end. See below. I'm not sweating the hose lengths. Hell, then folks might think I have AMS.
Okay, you can see some blemishes here and there on the station and the bulkhead. But, none of this will be visible through the open radio room hatch and I have better things to do this point. It's good enough.
Tomorrow I will install the Plexiglas radio room Hatch on the floor with fasteners, and then I will finally move on to the rear radio room bulkhead. Because the floor is warped, I am going to glue the floor on to the rear bulkhead and then fit both as a subassembly into the radio room. That will make it easier to press down the left rear of the floor, where the warping is, when it comes time to glue the fuselage halves together.
Finally. I dabbed on some brass paint over the blue, which a little bird told me was a modern abomination in restored aircraft. Then I fixed up a couple of oxygen hoses with connectors at the end. See below. I'm not sweating the hose lengths. Hell, then folks might think I have AMS.
Okay, you can see some blemishes here and there on the station and the bulkhead. But, none of this will be visible through the open radio room hatch and I have better things to do this point. It's good enough.
Tomorrow I will install the Plexiglas radio room Hatch on the floor with fasteners, and then I will finally move on to the rear radio room bulkhead. Because the floor is warped, I am going to glue the floor on to the rear bulkhead and then fit both as a subassembly into the radio room. That will make it easier to press down the left rear of the floor, where the warping is, when it comes time to glue the fuselage halves together.
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 07:30 AM UTC
RR Hatch Cover Placed and Secured
My day job continues to interfere with the important things, but this weekend I did get this small, but to me important, detail done.
Can't tell you how much mental energy has gone into where the B-17F radio room hatch was stored during missions: now you have my take on this burning question:
I look forward to -- finally -- getting to the rear bulkhead, where some prep work has already been started.
My day job continues to interfere with the important things, but this weekend I did get this small, but to me important, detail done.
Can't tell you how much mental energy has gone into where the B-17F radio room hatch was stored during missions: now you have my take on this burning question:
I look forward to -- finally -- getting to the rear bulkhead, where some prep work has already been started.
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 06:39 PM UTC
Brian,
Outstanding progress. The hatch cover really looks quite convincing where and how you stowed it.
BTW, when I 1st took a quick glance at your latest pictures, I thought that I was looking at the real deal. That's how good your detail work is getting.
Joel
Outstanding progress. The hatch cover really looks quite convincing where and how you stowed it.
BTW, when I 1st took a quick glance at your latest pictures, I thought that I was looking at the real deal. That's how good your detail work is getting.
Joel
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 06:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
Outstanding progress. The hatch cover really looks quite convincing where and how you stowed it.
BTW, when I 1st took a quick glance at your latest pictures, I thought that I was looking at the real deal. That's how good your detail work is getting.
Joel
Thanks Joel!
My NC modeling friend is meeting me here in NJ this weekend and we will be opening the crew hatches and doors for the Paragon set; figuring out how to tackle the crawl space between the pilots' and bomb/nav compartments; and coming up with a wing-spar fix, since a "butt join" obviously isn't going to work with the wings!
Joel_W
Associate EditorJoined: December 04, 2010
KitMaker: 11,666 posts
AeroScale: 7,410 posts
Posted: Monday, August 17, 2015 - 12:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextBrian,
Outstanding progress. The hatch cover really looks quite convincing where and how you stowed it.
BTW, when I 1st took a quick glance at your latest pictures, I thought that I was looking at the real deal. That's how good your detail work is getting.
Joel
Brian,
That's some agenda you've got for the two of you. Sure hope that you get through all of it. Like you, I hate butt joints, but ended up having to live with it on the Buffalo. So far the wings haven't fallen off, but time will tell, and it's usually not on my side.
Joel
Thanks Joel!
My NC modeling friend is meeting me here in NJ this weekend and we will be opening the crew hatches and doors for the Paragon set; figuring out how to tackle the crawl space between the pilots' and bomb/nav compartments; and coming up with a wing-spar fix, since a "butt join" obviously isn't going to work with the wings!
Redhand
#522
Joined: January 20, 2013
KitMaker: 1,460 posts
AeroScale: 1,443 posts
Posted: Monday, August 17, 2015 - 03:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Brian,
That's some agenda you've got for the two of you. Sure hope that you get through all of it. Like you, I hate butt joints, but ended up having to live with it on the Buffalo. Joel
Well, I'm not saying we'll get through it all!
Probably the door openings and the wing spars, with some concept discussion about the crawl-space/tunnel. We will see. I think the wing spar solution will be simple, and actually somewhat elegant. He and I have discussed it. Something like what Monogram did with the B-29 kit.
Whatever we do will be documented.
I did not realize you butt joined the wings on the Buff! Did you pin anything from the wing edges to the fuselage sides? I would have thought that about four pins each top and bottom would add some strength, so that it isn't just the glue holding the wing on, even if the depth of the pins in the plastic wouldn't be that deep.
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